Team vs individual Fly match?

[Sebastian Lambang]

Gentlemen,

I don't know if there is "team" flyshoot c/ship in OZ?... (for instance 3 or 4 shooters in each team, or even just 2?) --- If no, what's your thought about organizing a (registered) match with team category instead of just individual?  

Sorry for my poor English, but I guess you understand with what I mean..?


-Format is not like the WBC (which is "country vs country") but "team vs team".
(For instance: like in the USA....there were Team Savage, Team Berger, Team Lapua, etc)

-Team overall result is by combining the individuals result - each team.

-Prize can be separated.... i.e. teams & individuals category (#1, #2, #3)

-Sponsorship/donation etc...I guess it can be arranged?


Just an idea....but it must be very interesting, & challenging imo.

seb.

[john mc quire]

Hello Sebastian      a team type shoot would make shooting at a big shoot more interesting
                         there has been an effort made here in Australia  to get a State of Origin  team shoot going
                  our state compete in other sports to try and see what state produces the best teams
             it would be great to think that we could find sponsors to support a team shooting event
                in Australia it is very hard to get any sponsorship for shooting type sports
                   but your ides is great     and if it ever happens  it would for sure make for more exciting shooting matches
                           hope to see you in Canberra in March
                                      john mc quire

[Sebastian Lambang]

Hi John,

Thanks you for your positive response!

Re: Team
I can be one of the sponsors if that is okay, or acceptable. (i.e. by Australian shooters).
It's not good to talk or make suggestion only without a real action....so I would offer a sponsorship to the best I can.

However my previous thought was not State team (State vs State), but a "mix" team.
I'm unsure if State of Origin Team is/will be good for you all, because you're all Australian shooters...? (but what I do know, anyway?)
What I mean with "mix team" is....it's no matter where you come from.... and probably just based on friendship, or preference, or even just by random basis?  ---  for instance: team "Gado-gado" consists of You, Stuart & Annie, & me. (just for instance)....then there are team "Should Win", team "Banana Shape", team "No Matter Waht",  team "Ol' Buddies", team "ProCal", etc etc....
If there are just 20 shooters in the match, it would make at least 6 teams (of 3 shooters), or 5 teams of 4 shooters. Now if there are 40 shooters (in a big match), the teams will be twice than that, or maybe more.

It must be much more interesting / exciting, that way.

Now if a shooter or some don't want to make a team, it's their choice. It can be  a must or not a must.

Register fee can be 2x I think?.... one for the individual, one for team.
The match organizer can get more income with this way....?

Or with Money Shoot, like in the US SuperShoot....?

-----------

I don't think we need more than $ 3,000 for this....?
I don't think $ 3,000 will be very difficult to get...?

Let me give $ 1,000 for a start.
Again if this is acceptable, or reasonable.


Keep rolling,
seb.

[Les Fraser]

Hi Seb this is a fantastic offer indeed and very welcomed by all i am sure. I think in the first instance if Annie or Pete Vm or stuart could comment about these supershoots and how they run them then sure i would love to be apart of it.

The state of Origin trophy was an idea like yours by Pete Vanmuers, jugsy and myself it then grew with Anthony Hall wanting to contribute etc.

I can see no reason why we can't get this going aswell, i would really like to see a shoot shoulder to shoulder at the end of the regular fly match which would add another dimension to the shoot. There is usually some time after the shoot before the presentation and perhaps this could fit in there.

I am mindful that perhaps the organisers see it as another chore but i would certainly hold my hand up to put the targets up etc and i am sure that Pete would score as he is very very quick or annie any of these people are very efficient.

If the targets were shoulder to shoulder TEN shoot scoring match it would be very very interesting i am sure.

other thoughts please
cheers Les

[Sebastian Lambang]

Hi Les,

Re: Fed Cup....I have some questions please:
1. I still didn't register for this match, yet. How? and where I should pay the fee?
2. Who is/will be the match organizer?
3. As a foreign shooter, what is the requirements?....I only have a local/indonesian shooting license myself.
4. How many shooters, approximately will be?... LG?  HG?
5. Do you have some photos or videos about the range? Or where I can find it?
6. What does "shoulder to shoulder" mean?

Thanks,
seb.

[Lindsay Horsfall]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[Pete van Meurs]

Hi Seb,

I will try to answer your Questions -

1/  Nominations for the Fed Cup are not yet open. Please note that this match is PRIMARILY the first ever Australian National Fly Championships. Once Noms are called for you can place your entry. Payment is on the day of the match.

2/ The organiser is David Groves.

3/Just do whatever you have been doing when you have shot in Australia in the past, However, as this is a National Championship you will need to be a member of the SSAA. Overseas visitors are usually sent an invitation to compete and then temporary membership is organised. You should talk to the Elliots about organising all this for you. If you do not have the  SSAA membership you may still be able to compete but would not be eligible for any awards.

4/ Total entries will be around 100 - about 1/3rd HG and 2/3rd LG. At least 25 shooters will be 'double entered' so about 75 shooters present.

5/Visit ACT Benchrest website.

6/ Shoulder to shoulder simply means all shooting at the same time.

Pete

[Pete van Meurs]

Hi Lindsay,

You make a few valid points. Perhaps Les can create a new section 'Range contacts' or similar. For the Victorian matches held at Eagle Park near Little River township I am the organiser and contact (03-52811380).
There is no open conflict between the SSAA and the NRAA - both organisations do their own thing on seperate ranges (with the odd exception).
The Melbourne Benchrest Club (of which I am the current President) is working toward a new website which we should have up and running soon. Meanwhile Les has the dates for shoots around the country.
As for our Rule change discussions - I regard that as a very healthy debate and it will soon be finalised. One of my objectives is to see to it that the rules are kept as simple as possible and easy for new-comers to get their head around.
You should certainly make the effort to get to Canberra - especially on the Friday when many will be practising. Make yourself  known and ask for a bit of a guided tour. Chances are you will be able to let off a shot or two from someones rifle!
Please don't give up before you even start.

Pete

[Pete van Meurs]

Hi All,

Now onto Seb's original thread.
Firstly I must say that Seb should be thanked for his generosity and the concept he proposes is interesting to say the least.
For such a 'Teams' competition to exist it will have to be organised by the participating shooters themselves - there is no way the match organisers would be prepared to take on any more work.
The way I would see it happening is that all interested shooters would organise themselves into teams of four and each shooter puts $50 in the bag this would be over and above any sponsorship money. A 'treasurer' is appointed to hold the money and distribute it in four equal parts to the members of the winning team. The winning team would be the one with the highest aggregate score from it's four members.
The only question is do we allow those who are double-entered to use their best result, or maybe the average of the two or must they pre-nominate the entry to count??
Obviously the better shooters will quickly form teams and the lesser lights will probably not bother as they would view it as a waste of money if they reckoned they had no chance of success. There may then be 6 or 7 teams. Assuming 6 then the 'entry fees' would total $1200 plus any sponsorship. So at least $300 to each member of the winning team.
Any other ideas anyone??

Pete

[Les Fraser]

Hi Lindsay i have read your email with great interest given that you seem to be disheartened before you start is probably cause for your barrage of questions. Pete has answered them well however i will add that many locations share ranges Lyndhurst my home club is one such range it is however a full bore range and that is how it has been for over 120 years now. On any saturday you want to join us for a shoot then just do so, you are never going to get over the nerves of going to a range unless you get to one. There only exists respect for range uses many disciplines shoot on on range the main reason is ranges are hard to find so we all just have to fit in.

As for fly shooting you will find everyone at the shoot more than helpful and ready to give you some advice even a shot out of their very costly rifles. This sport has more helpful people than any other shooting discipline i have ever been involved in.

As far as contact people at ranges, you can source SSAA ranges by the SSAA website as you can for ranges in NSW just google the NSWRA and all the clubs contact details will be there.

I am more than happy to put up contact details for ranges, if they can be sent into me i will post them without any worries but i won't be searching for them as time does not permit for hours on end to get these sorted.

As far as the debate on rules go, Lindsay, we have to debate where folks are allowed freedom of speech. There has been some excellent debate that has ended up with a positive indication of what the shooters are after. If you don't want to buy in at this stage then that is fine but read the threads, ask questions if you like and when you begin shooting the fly it will make sense for you.

As for taking the plunge I am heading to my first short range benchrest match this coming week, having never ever shot a short range rifle. Only you can get over your perceived nerves, only you can make the effort to learn and become competitive, and it is only you that you have to beat.

Shooting is one of those sports that it is all up to you at the end of the day , we are all here to help you and give some guidance but if you don't get out there and give it a go you never will......

Les

[Sebastian Lambang]

Hi Lindsay,

Thanks you for your time & kind info. It is much appreciated!

If you come to the Fed Cup this March you can try my LG & setup there, if you like.

seb.

[Sebastian Lambang]

Hi Pete,

Thanks you for the info & much appreciated too!

Great follow up & thoughts there!

Re: Team "money shoot"
You bring an important thought with "the better  & lesser shooters" (loaning your term).... so it's more to shooter's choice/decision, I think.
Back to several years ago when I shot for the Supershoot in Ohio, I did not feel that I was gambling or wasting my money at all when I participated the money shoot ($50 per individual category if I remember correct, not a team match). I knew that I only had just 1/1,000 or less chance to win the yardage, but to me it sure added more fun & challenge to the match. Although I win nothing!
We need to encourage new shooters about this very matter --- not rare new shooters can make a great group (which in turn make the agg or score better, assuming he/she doesn't ruin the other targets). For instance, me. I'm just a newbie & shoot very rare, but I placed well in a few matches that I attend. I'm not a good shooter in any way! At least I don't think so.

Re: Shooters # in a team
For more friends & fun, I would opt for 4. But for more teams # & challenge in the match, I would opt for 3.  Or maybe even just two if the participants are not many/enough.
This need general concensus, I think.
Just for instance... I would prefer to see 12 teams total with 2 shooters per team rather than 8 teams total with 3 shooters per team, or 6 teams total with 4 shooters per team.
To make a team with less shooters would probably be easier also for most of the participants....???

Re: Aggregate score or total score?
Do we shoot agg score in the Fly, by the way?
Either aggregate or total score for each team will work, I guess?

Re: Best result or Agg of the two, or Pre-nominate
I would opt for pre-nominate myself because it's more fair & less risk of future problems, imo.

Re: Money prize
Sure bigger prize(s) would attract more shooters, but as you may agree with me most of us shoot competition not for money but more for fun & accomplishment. -- We can probably give some percents of the total money shoot to support the SSAA, or other positive thing, for instance?
Yes a treasurer or two will be in order (can be selected by random basis, or by election before the match begins) - if this idea is working.

......

My question now, do you think this idea (team match) would work for the Fed Cup this March?
I hope so!
If not, then we probably need to make one, or choose another c/ship.
If this is the case (plan B), then what/which match?


Stuart & Annie, Etc... please?

seb.

[Les Fraser]

I think Seb you have a great idea and one that we could get up and running for March however we are all still waiting from Dave Groves as to see the program. Pete VanMuers myself Anthony Hall would certainly be able to run it.

I think it should be shoulder to shoulder and shot at the end of the match as an accessory to the federal cup. The Federal cup is seen to be the premier shoot of the fly calendar year for fly. I know we have worked out the State of origin shoot which is simply aggregating scores over the day.

But a shoot where the competitors shoot shoulder to shoulder we be for those not competing a spectator event also they could watch with spotting scopes etc.

what does everyone think about this proposal

Les

[Michael Bell]

I for one think team events could be  great fun for all, ( and could develop into something very serious). If, though, organisers are a bit nervous about introducing new "games"to run on the same day as their major event, it would be a relatively simple matter to form up some unofficial teams and shoot off against each other  using their individual scores from the main event. This might be one way of testing the waters and a way of setting some rules in a trial and error fashion but not interfere  with the main event. Truth is I'd be surprised if this didn't already happen in some way. Golfers, for example, often have all sorts of weird and wonderful "side" games going on during their rounds.

[Sebastian Lambang]

Hi Les,

I think I need to clarify that my proposal (i.e. team match) & donation is intended for a "full" match (of 5 relays), not just for "one relay" after the match....?

I also suspect that the participants prefer team match for a full match rather than for one relay only....

seb.

[Sebastian Lambang]

Hello Michael,

Like you, personally I don't think it's very difficult to manage a team match - along with individuals match/result, in the same time... Even if it is processed & calculated manually (not by computer).

*Why I dare to say it's not (or wouldn't be) very difficult: I know "talk is easy", but we have "similar" team & individual match overhere in Indonesia for our local 3 positions score shooting match 100 m or 300 m. (usually more than 50 shooters in our local "national", 3 shooters in each team). One shooter can win both individual & team category, or just one of the two (more depend on his mates result for the team category).

seb.

 

[Les Fraser]

Hi Seb
Ok i see what you are asking now, what do you think about two classes of teams one for light gun and one for heavy gun, you have to compare them equally. There are not that many shooters who shoot both classes. I think over the whole day would be great fun. So is this what you are thinking pre nominate a team of three shooters from one state. Nomination has to be done prior to the Warmer target. The aggregate of the three team mates to apply to the total placings.

or

four man teams with one person allowed from one other state this way you will be able to compete with the Qld group if you wanted to your thoughts on this
cheers Les

[Sebastian Lambang]

Hi Les,

Thanks you so much for the positive response!

First, I just realized that BRT is the sponsor of this match. Don't know that before this.....so, I'm sorry for my ignorance!
In fact I still didn't talk with Stuart & Annie about the team match idea, my donation etc.
However I'll be happy to contribute / donate $ 1,000 for this match, although it's not much - to realize the "team match" idea & to add "more fun" into the match.

Re: LG - HG.
I believe you're right that we need two team classes/categories, one for LG class & one for HG. We also need the trophy & prize separated.
Also with pre-nominating a team before the warm up starts.

...............

It is certainly your (Aussies fly shooter's) call with the team match idea....will it be a team of three shooters from one state, or four man teams with one person allowed from one other state. I'm certainly not really important to count for sure! I suspect that there wouldn't be many oversea shooters in the c/ship also. --- But, if you ask me my thought on this matter... I think you know my answer. I'll opt for four or three man teams with one person allowed from other state - only for one reason, as you said this way I will be able to shoot with a team/QLD group.
My thanks to you for the idea of one person allowed from other state!
It will be my pleasure & pride if I can shoot with a team/QLD group!  

Now I need to beg, or you insist Stuart & Annie to accept me in their team! Lol.

.........

I'm happy with the progress of this topic/idea, honestly.
I'm sure that the team match will add more fun & challenge into the game/championship.

Again thanks,
seb.

[Dave Groves]

G'day all and thanks Sebastian for your kind offer of sponsorship of a team event for the BRT Federal Cup.

I'm in favour of it, and will enter if it is run, but as has already been said, as one of the organisers, I won't have time to participate in running it....

I would happily make an announcement (if this goes ahead, please remind me, I will have other things on my mind of course) at the start of the day to bring the teams match to all shooters attention, Anthony may be able to do something with his scoring system to automate the result at the end of the day?

I am reluctant to suggest that anything be done during the day in the scoring shed associated with the team event which would interrupt the scorers, so we might have to wait until the end of the day for a result, or do it handraulically (shouldn't be too hard) The scorers are going to have a VERY busy day, and that is our main risk for running this event - keeping our scoring team happy and productive, they easily have the hardest job associated with the running of the event!

I am in agreement with Seb and the others who would prefer that the team results be based upon the shooters scores from the whole match, thus meaning that you don't have to organise further shooting after the completion of the main shoot. I have seen State teams run at SSAA Nationals  (Combined Services Discipline) previously based upon the scores that were shot by competitors in the event, thus the only task in determining a winner is some arithmetic, not running a separate shoot, by the way, after the BRT Federal Cup, I would like the range closed so people can retrieve flags etc, and then the organisers of the Bat shoot can take over and start setting up their target frames, lighting system etc at 300m, so I would really prefer not to have much happening after the main event, an egg shoot might be a goer if somebody wants to organise it, but again, most of us  organisers will be busy checking the collated scores.

I think it might be worthwhile polling the audience regarding the amount that people chip in to enter the Team Shoot, $50 may put some people off who are new to the sport as they would doubt their chances, or not know anybody to team with and not want to risk it, if it was $10, $20 or so, maybe more would enter, making it a larger field of competing teams?

Another idea which may be a way to run it, would be to put all the names of the people who want to enter the team shoot in a hat and randomly pick pairs, three's, foursomes etc, that way a novice shooter might get paired up with one of the hotshots and have a win that way? If people know this is a possibility, maybe they would be more interested? Of course this cuts both ways, and sort of removes the opportunity for the hotshots to team up and sweep the field, that could be a good or a bad thing, depending upon your point of view...

Anyway, just my thoughts, thanks again Sebastian for starting the thread, it is very interesting, I have you down for two classes for the day by the way, spoke to Annie and Stuart at the Australia Day Benchrest Matches and saw your rifle, very nice mate.

Nominations have a few unfamiliar names so far, so looking foward to making some new friends on the day, although I will probably have my grumpy face on until it has all run smoothly....sorry in advance if that is so.....

Cheers

Dave Groves.

[Sebastian Lambang]

Hi David,

Great to hear from you. Thanks you for the positive response & kind welcome, etc!
Also thanks you for putting me in the nominations.

I'm really happy to see that the team event idea are "hotting" up. This, the BRT Fed Cup Fly National, maybe the best time to start the Team shoot!

...........

Just some more thoughts...

It will be great to tell all of the participants about the team shoot. The sooner the better so they can prepare everything earlier and pick the group.  
However we all first need to decide on the shooters # in each team - would it be four man teams, or three man teams.  
Secondly we need to decide if this is going for State of Origin Teams.....or "a mix", either with one person allowed from another state -or by random basis / drawing.
Any of those choices have pluses & minuses. That's why we need to decide....either by consensus or by vote.

State of Origin teams shoot seems to be a more "serious" shoot to my eyes.
Mix teams by random basis/drawing seems to be a more "fair" choice (i.e. concerning novice shooters...vs the hotshots etc) but people will or tend to depend on their "luck" with this option. (someone's lucky if he/she gets the "hotshots" in the group, or you have a "bad luck" if you get "not so good?" shooters in the group... also then how about husband & wife shooters?....or with shooters who share equipments? etc).
This is the hardest part to decide, I suspect.
But we must soon have a decision on this matter anyway....right?

Stuart, please chime in....

.............

Re: Team results & money prize.
I will vote for total shooters scores from the whole match for Team Results.
Not all shooters enter both classes I believe, so result for LG & HG category needs to be separated also.
 
Just in case the total scores of two different teams are exactly same (both the score & flies), then we may need a shoot off.

The $$ amount that will be chipped in to enter the team shoot should be decided very wisely, too.
This part is not so hard to decide, I believe.
For "pure" State of origin teams shoot, $50 (or so) per shooter wouldn't be a problem I guess? But if this is going to be "mix teams" shoot, smaller amount (say $20 or so per shooter) probably will be more suffice.
Besides, I have $ 1,000 to be donated for winners prize for this shoot.
By rough calculation,..... say 40 shooters enter the team shoot, and $ 25 "money shoot" per shooter....it will be $ 1,000...plus $ 1,000 from me = $ 2,000 totally.
If we divide it into LG team winners and HG team winners, it's $ 1,000 for each category.
Then say 50/30/20 for #1/#2/#3.... well, maybe we need more....?

Your thought gentlemen?


Q: Would the individual winner get $$$ prize, too?.... for LG?... HG?
     

Later,
seb.