Team vs individual Fly match?

[Les Fraser]

Hi Seb and Dave
Dave you are right mate you will be run off your feet on the day but there are those of us who will help i can assure you of that. as for the team event this is how i would like to see it run

1/ Scores for the whole day collated for the total score so the score would be out of 12 hundred max 300 points x 4 shooters.
2/ One trophy for light gun
3/ One trophy for Heavy Gun
No one shooter can enter both classes this way if you enter into a team in heavy gun then you cannot be in a team for light gun,
Four shooters picked to participate.
Entry fee to be $20.00 per person we will elect a treasurer on the day.

prize will be cash prize and medallion for first place only so this will mean that the prize money will be split 60% 1st,20% 2nd,10%third with the remaining 10% as a lucky draw for all the teams who participated in the event that way everyone has a chance of winning something.

As for the state of origin this is a separate event all together and please go to that thread and make your comment there as we need to keep these two teams events separate.

your thoughts please
Les

[Stuart Elliott]

Les, as usual you got it right again. Well done. I think most people covered most issues and typical of the respectful sort of discussion on this website which a great thing.

Sebastian, congratualtions, a very generouss offer to support your idea. Not problem with us as sponsors. We are simply the primary sponsor probably just like Peter is for the ProCal so any extras would always be welcome at either event I imagine.

As for SSAA membership? Yes this is an official match. A National Championship in fact and like any registered benchrest event SSAA membership is a prerequisite. But for yourself being an International visitor we can help arrange a special honorary membership which is usually done in situations like this. Unlike organisations in the U.S. we don't force International vistors to join. Alternatively you may considering joining anyway as you may like to receive the monthly magazine, the Australian Shooter included with membership. There is a special membership within National SSAA for Internationals. All the rest of us are actually members of our State associations.

I think Michael identified it correctly, as in Golf, there are always many "side" issues and events that add spice for those interested. But important to realise the main reason people are there... to play golf. Same with the Fly Shoot. In my opinion we should not loose sight of the fact that many people do not find interest in teams things, shooter of the year things, shooting two classes and the like but all people deserve every right to just be there. The most important thing about being there is.......   being there!

Rule 10.

Stuart Elliott

[Sebastian Lambang]

Thanks you Stuart.

Could you arrange the membership for me please?
In fact I plan to shoot more regularly in Australia, both for the point blank & long range match.
And the next WBC in Sidney, for sure.
I think I need it.

Cheers,
seb.

Q: Do I need to send the donation now?
Or you charge my credit card?

[Pete van Meurs]

Hi All,

I must say that I am not particularly happy with the format Les is proposing for a number of reasons.

Firstly, we already have groups of people working as a team at these shoots (sharing gear and flags etc ) and assisting each other through-out the day. Using the separate class thing would possibly not allow these groups to stay together.  As we still do not know for sure that double entries are going to be accepted we should be careful to establish some format that will work in either case.

Secondly, my experience of these side bets are that they are purely a 'Cash Bash' usually with a 'winner takes all' result. OK, I acknowledge that this might not be to everyones taste and certainly if there is money put in from a sponsor (over and above the 'nomination fee') then he/she can have a substantial say in how the cash gets distributed.

Now consider this - historically there are roughly double LG vs HG entries and the HG people are mostly very committed participants, whereas LG would have  not much more than half it's entry from equally committed people. The upshot of all that is that about one third of the field are 'dabblers' and are unlikely to be interested in a Team match as they would percieve that their chance of being in a strong team is unlikely and even for $20 would possibly not be interested in the lucky draw suggestion.

If my above summation is correct then we would have roughly equal numbers of LG and HG entrants willing to have a go; so I would propose that each 4 person team should consist of 2 pre-nominated shooters in each class. However if this is not possible for all interested parties then additional teams could be formed with 3x LG and 1x HG or even 4x LG. Get the right four people with LG and they will be fully competitive. This will work regardless of the acceptance of double entries. As an example  - 'Team ProCal' already exists for the other reasons stated above and would want to enter the side-bet as a team. If double entries went ahead then we would have to make a choice of class and that would be much less fun than being involved with ALL the other hopefuls. If double entries are not accepted we have already decided to have myself and Jason Trotter shoot HG with Lee-Anne and Tyson Trotter shooting LG class. Separating the classes for the team event would force us to find others to complete two teams and quite frankly we would simply lose all interest and not bother to be in the 'Team' side-bet.

Possibly a distribution of prize money down to say  fifth place in my proposed format will bolster interest in the team match. Also consider that in the separate class proposal we may only get 3 or 4 teams in HG especially. Afterall the better shooters will quickly form up into very strong teams and that will discourage others from bothering

Thankfully any talk of which state members of a team are from has fallen by the wayside as this is quite irrelevant.

In my opinion the format should be as simple as possible and remain flexible to accomodate other possible relevant factors. Also, since it started out as a 'Cash Bash' fun thing why would we bother with trophies or medals - there will be plenty of that stuff for the Nationals and the Fed Cup.

Pete

[Anthony Hall]

I am happy to help with the administration once the format is agreed on.

Working it out before the event would be preferable as I may be able to write a spreadsheet into the score programme to return the results automatically at the conclusion....

While I think that one entry per individual should be allowed, I won't buy into the one class/two class/mixing classes debate... as I don't really care.  I only shoot one class at the moment anyway and as long as it is pre agreed by the majority, it will be fine with me.

If we wanted to keep it totally random, we could have people pay their $20, then draw a  number from a hat at sign in..... after entries close (say 20 min before the first target) we just delete all the un drawn numbers and take the teams as the first 4 team 1, second 4 team 2 and so on.... luck of the draw re heavy guns/light guns etc.....

That method would encourage people to get to know the other 3 on their team and maybe even make new friends....

Cheers

Anthony

[Dave Groves]

Well guys, I reckon you need to come up with some options and have a poll or something, ie:

Random choice  team drawn out of the hat Vs Planned teams where people can form their own teams (Random V Planned)
Entry Fees (Charge $20, $30, $40, $50?)
Team #'s (2, 3 or 4 competitors per team?)
Multiple entries? (If shooting 2 classes, allow 2 entries?)
Multiple entries, nominate class for Team event? If a person shooting both classes, do they nominate the class that will be counted towards the team, or do they just have their best class counted? (Nom class V Best Performance)

What other things should we ask? Once we determine all the options, happy to put my views and we can collate what everybody thinks.

Of course, Sebastian has a right of veto if he doesn't agree with the ideas put forward, but at least we can get an idea of where it is going.

Cheers.

Dave Groves.

[Les Fraser]

Hi everyone
glad to see that at least my proposal is out there, ultimately what i have tried to do is encourage lots of different shooters into teams. By splitting teams into different classes then the good shooters as Pete put it would only get one bite of the cherry so to speak.

What about this then, as Pete has put up "team Pro Cal" would have a mixture of members shooting both classes. I would say that  by only allowing them to shoot in one class would certainly mean that they would have to pick up other shooters to make the classes up.

However

I guess if we have one class 4x person team HG or LG then the teams would be selected prior to the shoot but shooters have to nominate LG or HG which they are using in the teams match. That way there is no double dipping and using the best score. Otherwise those of us who are shooting two guns double our chances of providing a high score for the team.

As for a cash bash i didn't even think of it like that ,what i am trying to put up is to provide as many shooters the opportunity to come away with something.

I am still in favour of having the prize pool split so that 1st,2nd,3rd get 60%,20%,10% and a draw for the other 10% that way every team has a chance of coming away from the team event with something.

Please read Pete's post and make your own minds up and have a say there is only 4 weeks till the shoot
cheers Les

[john mc quire]

Hello All     I agree with Dave Groves
                   lets get the format for the teams shoot sorted out
                Les  can you set up a poll to get the opinions of the shooters  who will be competing in the team shoot
                 if the questions can be set up so a Yes or No answer can be counted  and a descision then can be made
                 it might take a list of question  --  like how much for the nomination   $20,$30,$40 , $50  
                    and if you can enter 1 class or 2    -- how many in the team  --  
                          and  all the other things that have to be sorted out before the big day
                  I'm sure that Anthony could put all the data into a spread sheet  that we could all download and see
                 what  each shooter would like to see happen  
                       the nomination sheet has all the shooters names and classes they want to shoot  
                     if a few more colums were added to that sheet to collect the votes  from each shooter
                  it would have all the data neded to make the descisions that are needed
                          Only a few WEEKS to GO   untill we shoot
                                     cheers    john mc quire

[Les Fraser]

Hi John sorry mate i don't have the time to set this type of counter system up at the moment. I have put a propasal forward and so has Pete. I think that there needs to be some consideration of these two proposals and work from that my last post i think is a compromise for both but i guess it is up to the shooters.

cheers Les

[Sebastian Lambang]

G'day Guys,

IF this is will be going to "poll method" (just in case), we then need the QUICKEST WAY to gather the poll!
I suspect that not many shooters (that will attend this Fed Cup) read this forum...in fact not many responses to this thread.... So maybe better to send email to all participants, and ask them to reply within two or three days?
I believe that Dave has the participants & their emails in hand.

The poll might consist:
a). Are you going to shoot/attend the team event? (Yes / No)
b). If so, what is your preference for making Teams? (by random drawing before warmup/ by choosing team mates yourself upfront)
c). If so, how many shooters do you prefer in each team? (2/ 3/ 4)
d). If there will be TWO (separate) classes/categories LG & HG. Are you going to make LG team, or HG team? (LG team only / HG team only / Both)
e). How many Teams do you expect to shoot in this match, per class? (at least 5 / 10 / 15 teams, per Class)
f). How much is your preference for the registering fee? ($ 20/30/40/50)
g). Your team mates:  (.................. , .................... , ...................) *in case we decide choosing team mates upfront.
h). Are you sharing rifles / equipments?
i). Your additional thoughts (or objections), for our consideration: ............................

I think a) & b) & c) the most important things to ask.

Of course we need to shortly explain about the team event in the e-mail, the background/purposes/future goals, the money prize, etc.

It wouldn't take more than one hour to make & send emails to all of the participants, so bee hurry gentlemen.
This way we can gather shooters preference & inputs, with more certainty, within several days only.

.... seb.

[Les Fraser]

great idea Seb i will email dave groves tomorrow and see if he will send me the email list
cheers LEs

[Dave Groves]

Hey All,
                Happy to circulate this to the e-mail list we have gathered over the last couple of years, does anybody have anything to add to the list of questions in Sebastians post?

Cheers.

Dave.

[Les Fraser]

that would be great Dave i think the questions that Seb has raised would be enough as he is actually putting up the majority of the Prize money.

thanks for the help Les

[Dave Groves]

Hi All, this is what I just sent out all the e-mail addressees in the Fly address book.

         There has been a suggestion that a Team Shoot be run as a “side bet” to the BRT Federal Cup / Inaugural Fly Nationals, Sebastian Lambang, producer of Seb products has kindly offered to put up $1000 sponsorship towards the prize money to increase interest in the Team Shoot, the only thing that needs to be done from here is formalise the rules and the way it will be run, basically the scores that the teams members shoot will be added up and that will determine where the team finishes in the overall “Team Shoot”

A number of people have both provided their views on the 500m Fly website which Les Fraser runs here: http://www.500mflyshooters.com.au/page5.php under the Team vs Individual Team Shoot thread.

The people who are proposing to run the Team Shoot would like some shooter feedback about the idea so that they can make some decisions, could you please respond to the following questions so that I can provide the information to them. Please delete the non-applicable answer.

Cheers.

Dave.

Please reply to this message to: [e-mail]

a). If you are shooting in the BRT Federal Cup/Inaugural Fly Nationals, would you be interested in entering the Team Shoot?             (Yes / No)

b). If you would like to participate in the Team Shoot, what is your preference for making Teams?

Random drawing out of a hat or by choosing your team mates upfront?          Random/Chosen

c). If so, how many shooters do you prefer in each team? (2/ 3/ 4)

d). Should there be separate Light and Heavy classes or should it just be 2, 3 or 4 shooters scores, regardless of which classes they come from?

e). How many Teams do you expect to shoot in this match, per class? (at least 5 / 10 / 15 teams, per Class)

f). How much would you be prepared to put in to participate in the Team Shoot? ($ 20/30/40/50) (noting that the entry fees will be supplemented by Sebastians kind donation of $1000)
 
g). Your additional thoughts (or objections), for our consideration: ............................

[Anthony Hall]

Hi Dave,

Well said !! .... should get some interesting replies and maybe even get some more reading this forum.

Good effort and it will be interesting to see the responses.

Cheers

Anthony

[Bob Mulder]

Teams of 4 depending on how many heavy gun people 1heavy 3 light  drawn from a hat $25 per entry if there  are 20 heavy guns that will give us 20 teams if still more light guns available make 5 man teams work on people available on the day. Scores of each team can be tallied as they go up on the board as each team will surely be tallying up their scores.if you have 20 teams $100 per team $2000 and yes divided 60% first 40% second 10% third.
Just my 2 Bob`s worth

[Les Fraser]

hi mate thanks for the input , can you please use your real name and a photo of yourself on this forum we like to know who is who and for new shooters who come to fly shoots they can talk to someone that they have seen on here.

thanks Les

[Anthony Hall]

If you haven't already emailed your vote in to Dave Groves, please do it now, or post your votes for each question (along with your name) up on here..... I will be putting the results of the votes together in the next couple of days....

Cheers

Anthony

[Anthony Hall]

EDIT - This doesn't quite look like I wanted it to.... have a look at the attached spreadsheet to make it clearer.

        A B C D E F G
        Would you Participate Team Selection No per team LG/HG No of teams Entry Fee Comments
                                                       
Rob White Dunno Shooting is even more an individual sport than golf.   Given the circumstances, I think any ‘team’ will be contrived – unless it was a genuine club vs club or state vs state competition
Jim Mckinley NO
Annie Elliott yes Chosen 4 Combined 10 $20
Anthony Hall yes random 4 Combined As Many as $20
Bob Mulder yes Random 4 one HG per team As Many as $25 One HG Per team happy to help score it
Dave Groves yes random 4 Combined As Many as $20 If chosen a few will be unbeatable, if random Joe blow could pair with PVM or elliotts and win - More will take it up
Dave Waters Yes Chosen 4 Combined As Many as $10
Greg Chapman yes random 4 Combined As Many as <$20 Fly shooting is already getting expensive, at Fed cup we 50 dollars for the fly, 20 dollars for the BAT shoot and 15 dollars for the 1000y IBS that is already 85 dollars
Ian Davis yes Random 4 Combined 10 $10 3 or four per team mixed HG / LG
John McQuire yes random 4 Seperated 5LG/5HG $20 You have to keep it simple to understand and easy to compete in and stop the top dozen or so forming teams and swooping the pool.
Les Fraser yes Chosen 4 Seperated As Many as $20 I think that a team shoot will add alot of interest in other shooters performances and bring out the best in everyone who participates
Michael Bell yes random 3 or 4 Combined 10+ $20 So as to not distract from the main event volunteers probably should collate scores so official scorers and officials aren't impacted in any way by this additional event. I offer my services as a volunteer.
Michael Farr Yes Chosen 4 15+ $40 noting that the entry fees will be supplemented by Sebastians kind donation of $1000
Peter van Meurs YES Chosen 4 Combined See many comments on the forum
Richard Wild Yes Chosen 4 Combined no idea $5 We need to take this away formt he concept of side bets and move it towards rewarding excellence in precison shooting.  A perpetual Teams Trophy  for example from the $1000. 
Sean Whittaker Yes random 4 Combined no idea $20 I  think random team selection at the Nationals will appeal to more shooters and get them involved
Stuart Elliott Yes Chosen 4 Combined 10 $20 Good thing. "Side bet", run by others. Organisers have enough to consider.
Rick Collins Yes random 4 Combined As Many as $20
Dave Purcell Maybe Random 4 Combined As Many as $20 Introducing money could be a bad thing with protests and problems likley, would only consider if Random Draw
                                                       
                                                       
                                                       
                                                       
        19 Responses
        16 yes        10 Random 16 4's 1 x $40
        1 no 7 Chosen                   1 "3 or 4" 14 Combined 1 x $25
        1 Dunno                    2 Seperated 10 x $20
        1 Maybe                     1 x <$20
                                                                     2x $10
                                                                     1 x $5
Vote_Results_money_shoot.xls

[Sebastian Lambang]

Well done Dave & Anthony!

My vote, if that's count also...
A. Participate? YES!
B. Team selection? Wouldn't vote this now for some reasons. We still need more votes gathered too. Will use my right to veto this mater if needed at the time.
C. No per team? 3 or 4 (any).
D. LG/HG? I prefer Separated myself.  *(reason in my comment bellow)
E. No of Teams? As MANY as possible.
F. Entry fee? $20 or any.
G. Comments... prefer separated myself because the shoot will be more specific that way...i.e. LG for LG, HG for HG.
The only "drawback" with separated perhaps just with the money prize as it would be separated also i.e. 50% LG, 50% HG. However Combined is okay/should be no problem for me. (Any)

Re: Money prize
Prefer 50/25/15 myself. The 10% remain can be used for something else, maybe for #4 & #5 placing?
Or, how about to use the $1,000 to create woods/trophies?

Hopefully we can receive more votes (say 2/3 of the participants) in a few days...

Best Wishes,
seb.