interim fly rules for discussion

[Les Fraser]

Hi fellow fly shooters please have a look at these possible rules for fly shooting, remember that easter is the last time they will change for 5 years so lets start talking about them and get it as right as we can for now
cheers Lesfly_shoot_rules_amended%5B2%5D.doc

[Anthony Hall]

Hi Les,

I have added some Comments to the word document and attached it.

Cheers

Anthonyfly_shoot_rules_amended%5B2%5D.doc

[Pete van Meurs]

Before offering comment on the changes Les has suggested I wish to remind everyone that the Fly rules MUST be read in conjuntion with the main benchrest rule book. This can be accessed two ways - purchase from SSAA St Mary's in NSW or downloaded from 'Other Stuff' on the Bencrest Bulletin website. Whilst it is still an interim set of rules changes can be made at, and implemented immediately after the National Benchrest Delegates Meeting which is held at the B/R Nationals over Easter each year (2012 will be in Perth). The next print is due in 2014 after which changes can be decided upon at each Nationals but not implemented until the next print (up to 5 years hence). So we still have nearly 3 years before the rules are set in concrete. Furthermore, nothing in the Fly rules can countermand any existing rule in the main rule book. Some contradictions may occur due to the different nature of the Fly shoot format (eg no bench rotation). Now onto my comments -

Re 2.8        This is adequately covered in the main rules
Re 3.1.1.2   Electronic triggers are allowed in the main rules as they confer no advantage since they must still be set off by finger pressure.
Re 3.1.1.3   The original draft of these rules made mention of the competitor lifting his or her own rifle onto the bench but was changed so as not to discriminate against the frail, elderly and infirm etc - litigation could easily be the result.
Re 3.2.4      Seems a sensible re-wording. By the way has anyone actually seen such a devise in use?
Re 3.2.5      I would suggest keeping the original wording but adding the words 'whilst shooting is in progress', just to clarify it.
Re 3.2.6      This is already fully covered in the main rules - Item 6.11.4
Re 3.2.8      Unworkable and contrary to the main rules - quite common in all other B/R matches to have reserve rifles to cover mechanical failure or change in conditions etc.
Re 3.2.9      Again unworkable and discriminatory. A competitor with only one rifle (a LG) should be able to shoot two classes if desired to justify the trouble taken to get to a match for example. It is also to the detriment of organising clubs as it may reduce their revenue. Refer also to 3.10 and 9.13 in the rule book in regard to these last two points.
Re 3.2.10    This is adequately well covered in the main rules 7.9.1 although 7.9 should be upgraded to  refer to say 20 lbs rather than 15lbs as it now is.
Re 3.3.1.3    Agree that mention of a warmer target was overlooked.
Re 3.4.4      Agree that the tolerance is a bit too slack, but would prefer to retain +/- to avoid potential issues on existing ranges.
Re 3.5         Under 'Target Scoring" would also change from 'Group SIZE' to Group BONUS POINTS. to clarify.
Re 3.5.1      Unnecessary as it is all covered in the main reules - Item 11.3
Re 3.9.2     Unnecessary as it is simply repeating Rule 15.5
Re 3.10.1    As anyone who has been involved in Benchrest for any length of time will appreciate (especially those involved with organisation) - it simply does not work. Also, unlike most ranges used for 100/200 B/R, I have yet to note any permanently BAD benches on any of the 500mt ranges I have been to. Sure there can be a bad bench on the day but it's totally unpredictable. Also into the mix is not just people sharing on one bench but often people on adjacent benches will want to be so situated to share flags.
Re 3.10.2    Following on from the above this is creating extra work for no gain and would be near impossible to have done days in advance to allow people to put their flags out at their leisure.
Re 3.10.3    Again following on from the above - mandatory use of all available benches is wasteful of targets and target crew time. It has always been pure practicality to compress the number of benches down to suit the entry level.
Re 3.10.4    Unnecessary - repeating Rule 7.2.3

In explaination of my comments where the main rule book either already has that exact rule or that something is adequately covered, my time as a B/R delegate has taught me that most delegates will oppose any such duplication (if for no other reason than we don't want the rule book to become as big as the Holy Bible)

Pete

[Les Fraser]

Thanks Pete and Anthony i will try and get a pdf copy of the rule book and put it up on here aswell for everyone to print off and have their say. The changes mentioned i have put in red so if you could read this in conjunction with pete's comments then we have a starting point. I would like to also invite the organisers of the respective shoots to add aswell.

I tried to put what is currently in and what some folks would like to see. This is a working document NOT a finished product and i welcome as much debate as possible.

To really develop this sport we need to make as much as practicable rules that demonstrate an open and transparent sport where the rules are the rules and everyone knows them.

cheers and good shooting Les

[fellow fly shooter]

I think that Les has not thought this through. BUT to only benefit himself.
Some fellow fly shooters are not made of money and have to share equipment between shooters.
As Bench draws go most people organise a bench prior to the event. Therefor people sharing equiptment can organise ahead. Any person that doesnt take the time to organise a bench with the organisers will be allocated a bench on the day.
I think he is forgetting that the fly shoots are about having fun and not only winning.
e.g. Rule 10 on fly target states ANY COMPETITOR FOUND NOT ENJOYING THEMSELVES WILL BE DISQUALIFIED.
Why should it matter if you enter the same light gun in Heavy gun class, you have a disadvantage of cleaning copper fouling ect. At the end of the day we're there to have fun in our sport not worry how many times a firearm is shot in a class.
I think with rules like Les is putting forward will make it hard for people starting out and potentially scare them away.

Like the old saying goes IF IT AINT BROKE THEN DONT FIX IT..

[Les Fraser]

Hi Fellow fly shooter please abide by the guidelines of this forum and post your name and photo as requested.

I have put up interim rule suggestions for debate, please debate them if you have a personal issue that you feel i may have some advantage in putting these rules up then please contact me my email is [e-mail] and then i will provide my phone number for an open discussion should you wish to provide your concerns.

looking forward to your valued input
cheers Les Fraser

[Anthony Hall]

Hi Fellow Fly shooter,

Great to see another new voice putting forward their thoughts on this forum.

The more opinions and points of view the better for things like this. The rules are important and I think that any suggeted rule changes, like any parts of running a match should be transparent and open to as many of the competitors as possible. I don't agree with all the things Les suggests either, but that is the point of debate.... we know what he thinks and can express what we all think.

I think it would be better  if you would give your name, then at least we all know who we are discussing with and thereby give credibility to your point of view. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their say.... open and frank discussion will see this sport grow and go forward.

Cheers

Anthony

[Pete van Meurs]

"Fellow Fly  Shooter" - by name but not by deed. The whole point of this forum (compared to most others) is honesty and accountability. Personally I have never, and will never appear on a forum under anything other than my full name or a recognisable abbreviation thereof. I remain fully accountable for all my comments. On the ccurrent thread I have differed in opinion with Les Fraser but have tried to explain my reasons - personal sledging should be left to face-to-face, phone or text, not an anonymous forum post. As I see it you have three choices -
1/   Post again under the same  anonymous name and make a decent apology, then in future post reasoned comment with full identity.
2/   Post again under your true identity with your apology - all will be forgiven.
3/   Piss off forever
Your choice
Pete

[Dave Purcell]

Dear Fellow Flyshooter,
I wish to state outright that YOU are a poor excuse for a human being. If you have an opinion, which you obviously do then at least be man enough to stand behind it.
Now as to your post Les has won LG SOTY 2 years running, HG SOTY this year, set several national records including the high score of 283 which was simply amazing all under the existing rules. I think that suggests that he does not need to adjust the rules to his own advantage and how you came to such a deluded conclusion is a mystery to me.
What on earth has money got to do with anything you can build a very cheap rifle that will win if you can drive it, you cannot however win in this sport simply by spending money.
Yes you can organsie TO SHARE A BENCH that does not mean you get to hand pick a particular bench your comment is pointless.
As to Rule 10 it seems you are overly concerned about shooters with more money than you having an advantage, that you may not be able to select a bench(something you would only want to do for a perceived advantage) neither of these things in your post suggest that you are interested in having FUN rather that you want to win. So by your own standards you are disqualified.
It doesnt matter if you enter the same LG in both classes (although those with more money wil be able to afford the extra ammo and entry fee) ... does that constitute an advantage to the wealthy????
Now to your last gem ... posts and attitudes like yours are far more likely to scare new shooters away.
Les is building a full custom rifle people can shoot for the cost of ammo, running a website to promote the sport, seeking sponsors for events and spending his hard earned to try and grow the sport. He has posted here information on wind reading and other things to pass knowledge on to others ... what have you done?????????
Please do the sport a favour and go do something else or conversely post under your name with a picture and make a worthwhile contribution to the growth of Fly shooting.
If you dont like this post you can speak to me about it at any match I attend you will know me by my picture and my name.

[Deane Thrower]

Since you all can't see me I will describe the sweet sound of clapping directed at Pete and DaveP. I will never understand how someone can suggest that a set of Rules can give ONE person an added advantage.

Also our "fellow fly shooter" must not have seen or competed in many fly shoots, I say this because anyone who has seen or competed with Les will know that he doesn't need any added advantage, hard work dedication and down right fu@king skill is in abundance when it comes to Mr Faser.

Anyways there will always be one. Those that attend and contribute to fly shooting far exceed the negative inputs you here from time to time. It's all white noise.

Thanks guys

[Les Fraser]

Hi fellow shooters thanks to Anthony i have attached a full copy of the Benchrest Rule book, it is on the home page just click the link. With this you can check the rules out for yourselves and work from there. Healthy discussion to get this right is more than welcome we have a great sport that is only going to get bigger with time.

cheers and good shooting to all
Les Fraser

[Pete van Meurs]

Hi Les and all other readers,

More on the issue of 'Random Bench Draw" that I did not have the time to go into at the time of my original post on this subject.

1/  SSAA rules demand that an organising club/branch must accept entries up to (I think) 1/2 an hour before the first detail is scheduled to fire if there are vacancies available. Such placement at the  discrection of the host or  by random ballot of the available places would immediately render the original draw null and void in any case.
2/ Over a great number of years the benchrest fraternity have had their computer program compile a random draw only to have to modify it to accomodate  flag sharing, gear sharing, left-handed shooters etc to the point where a manual bench allocation would differ in only a minor degree. Granted this is where bench rotation is mandatory and should make little difference , if any. But, as I pointed out earlier, the ranges used for 500mt shoots do not seem to have PERMANENTLY BAD benches, so  why worry about a random bench draw , so long as the host club tries to 'spread it around a bit' when it comes to visitors who either do not have their own flags and/or do not have pre-arranged placement points (like our regular competitors at Eagle Park - where the bench selection has mostly to with proximity of the steps to the firing line and where you park your car).

Pete
 

[Les Fraser]

Hi Pete and other shooters this is good feed back and needs to be thought of by all the flyshooters. I think that if the shooters are spread across the range and get different firing positions from their last shoot then true what is the problem. At little river it blows like a bugger no matter where you are and your flags are sometimes at the mercy of the public. I think we may be at a stage where by Anthony could revisit what i posted and put your comments and his into a new work in progress document.

What do you think!!!!

I really like getting these rules out there and as you can see i attached the current benchrest rule book at the home page of this site for everyone.

I must say i am very pleased with this response to the rules it definately demonstrates there is a committment to getting them right before next year.

From the amount of viewing this post has received then i am sure that this information is getting a fair bit attention so lets keep it moving in a positive direction....

all the best Les

[Pete van meurs]

Just a couple of things -
If any club running regular matches and can have a B/R delegate in attendance then the club should consider registering these matches in case a record is set. The club can register the match in advance regardless, but a B/R delegate will need to be in attedance on the day to formalise everything.
The other point is rear bags - basically we have inherited the rules in this regard from traditional benchrest  where extremes of upward or downward angle of fire are not normally encountered. I would suggest that the rule be re-writtten to exclude all crap about "stabiliser plates" and allow rear bag packers (eg blocks of wood) so long as they are not affixed to the bench in any way. If this gets some backing I will write it up as a formal proposal, for approval by the masses.

Pete

[Anthony Hall]

Hi Pete,

Good Idea re the club matches being registered.... I guess that also means that we have to pay the benchrest committee the fee of $2 per entry and supply full results after the shoot.

In relation to the rules and the rear bags .... the full benchrest rules state: (page 11)

5.2.2 The front rest may be a block or pedestal, and may incorporate
adjustments for windage and elevation, but shall not have any guiding
means; it shall be used in conjunction with a sandbag on which to rest the
fore-end of the rifle; the section of fore-end contacting the sandbag shall
be for full width of the stock. The rear rest shall be a sandbag only, except
that a vertical spacer shall be allowed between this sandbag and the
bench-top. Such spacer shall not incorporate adjustments for windage or
elevation, nor shall it contain any protrusions which can be inserted into
the bench-top or the sandbag and the top and bottom of the spacer shall
be substantially flat. The rear sandbag shall not be contained in any
manner.

I think this already covers rear spacers etc as long as they don't attach to the bench and are substantially flat in nature (ie block of wood, metal block etc).

Cheers

Anthony

[Pete van Meurs]

Hi Anthony & all others,

If you want to register your matches, you will indeed be obliged to collect the $2 levy. You will also need a delegate in attendance - suggest you approach your state delegates and have them appoint you as a 'proxy'

Back to this rear bag thing - you rightly point out rule 5.2.2 in the main rule book as covering this but our interim Fly rules muddy the waters by saying that the bag must contact the bench!

The simple way of fixing this is to delete Fly rule 3.2.4 (the bit about stabilisers) and have 3.2.3 read "Rifles are to be shot from restricted rests" which automatically points us back to the main rule book and item 5.2.2

Pete

[Anthony Hall]

Good to see plenty of thoughts and discussion.

It would also be great to see some others that are maybe lurking and reading this forum chime in with their thoughts on the rules, beit pro, neutral, negative or even unrelated to what has been posted on here so far .. the more input the better.

 I will happily compile a more formal draft of suggestions for changes to be presented to the national benchrest committee next year.  I'll use the thoughts and opinions from this thread as the basis of this ....

So if you have something to say .... put it up  !!

Cheers

Anthony

[Alan Esler]

Hi all,
I think Peter Vm has a very valid point re. rear bag spacer, as I know at Belmont I can't get my front rest low enough to "get on" and I feel if what is/isn't acceptable is written into the rules, it will eliminate one more "debate" when we least need it.
Regards,
Alan esler

[Dave Purcell]

Hey Alan welcome to the forum.
I agree the rules need to show very clear boundries. It makes life easier for us all if we can identify what legal and whats not especially come match day. Nothing puts a damper on a good day like arguments can.

Dave

[Les Fraser]

great work guys keep the thread going this discussion is very positive and there is some great issues coming out of this forum.

Welcome Alan your input is valued, with more and more people getting involved in this we will have great rules as the end result.
cheers Les