What caliber would you build a new rifle on for Light and for heavy.

[Les Fraser]

Hope fully this will get some conversation going. After turning some lapua brass recently i got to thinking that lapua has really got the hot calibers covered. From the 220 russion for the 6 PPC, 6BR- which covers dasher and other hot 6mm's, 6.5x47 -6x47L the 6.5x284, the 284 and many others. I thought with the way they have set the calibers up you would only have to select already supplied brass and you could do very well.

I know that Anthony's 6BR and Belly's 6BRX are to red hot 6mm's out now but the 6BR is very hot right off the shelf. As for a heavy gun then the 6,5x284 or the 284 would be equally a top competitor.

The 6.5x47 L has not hit the highlights as yet but i am thinking that very shortly one of these great calibers will make it's mark on the fly shooting scene.

As for guns after talking to a close mate Dave Purcell he said something that really does ring true and that is why build a new rifle when there are so many excellent second hand rifles out there that shoot well.

I have been very fortunate myself to find excellent second hand rifles that have won a lot of matches and i have had new rifles built that have not reached any level of acceptable potential.

There is always the term a "hummer barrel" out there lots of bench rest shooters state this when they have a particular barrel that just shoots straight from the box so to speak.

I don't totally believe this i think what happens in alot of cases the person just hits the sweet spot with a load and the harmonics of the rifle suit that current set up. Other barrels just need to be worked on that little harder to achieve those results we all chase.

Usedguns website has really put the art of seeking out a possible rig at the disposal of all new shooters to the sport. I am confident that anyone could get a match winning rifle from this site for thousands less than a new build would cost if they new what they were looking for.

[Anthony Hall]

Hi Les,

I think that it is a mix of available components and other factors that help some calibres be more successful or desirable than others...

Brass is one, projectiles that work at the velocities produced by that particular case is another. Recoil from both the weight of the rifle and the tolerance/preference of the shooter plays a larger part than a lot of people believe.

I think that there is a "magic" combination of great 6mm projectiles available, good brass, lots of data and info as well as a match up of recoil v weight that make 6mm hard to beat in light gun.  Exactly the same happens with the bigger 30 cal's in heavy gun....  There is lots of great projectiles and the weight v recoil equation comes back to similar proportion as the 6mm variants when you have a 50+lb rifle shooting 180-220 grain projectiles.

I have tried .284 and have seen lots of others try 6.5-284 and a myriad of other in between calibres in light gun.... While it is a great calibre on a windy day.... and I won 1000 yards for both score and group in Canberra with it.... I could not get the precision and speed required to win 500m fly in reasonable conditions... I don't think the projectiles available in 7mm were as good as the 6mm's and 30 cal's.

In F Class where speed is irrelevant and ballistics play a larger part.... the heavier light guns (like 6.5-284, .284, 260, 280 etc) seem to be a better choice.... but 500m fly has a much smaller "x" ring and speed certainly plays a part....  If I get a good condition, with the .284 I am still recovering from the recoil of the second shot when I would have finished all 5 with the 6br.....

As for the "Hummer" barrel.... I agree with Les... While some barrels are clearly better than others... and a bad barrel makes a great tomato stake...... it is a matter of load development to find the right projectiles, primers, powder, neck clearance and tension, and seating depth etc to make it sing....  I know my 6br was reasonable at best until I got the load development right.... it took time and effort (lots of both).  I don't believe that there is such a thing as out of the box perfection with a book recipe load.

I am sure we will see some records and wins with "in between" calibers.... but Fly certainly seems to be dominated in light gun with 6mm's (6BR, 6BRX, 6 Dasher etc) and heavy gun with .30 cal magnums.

Cheers

Anthony

[Les Fraser]

Well there is lots of lookers but no comments so it looks like Anthony and I have the run on most threads.

I have been trying my hardest to get the 300 ackley to shoot the one that is in the main photo and to date it just doesn't however now armed with more information that i sourced from Benchrest central in the United States i am off again on the venture of load development and result to see if i can get this rifle to shoot or pull it apart and start again (ouch that will hurt)....

It would seem that when you go out looking for a caliber then you should also check for available data on that specific case or you will fly blind like i have with this big 30 cal.

In any event nothing ventured nothing gained i have selected the following bullets and powder range.
185 Lapua
190 Sierra BTHP matchking
200 berger Hybrid
210 berger VLD
215 berger Hybrid

the powder will be 2217 and 2225 around the 80-83grn mark but working up to both and check for pressure....

the best i have been able to get on an absolutely calm late afternoon is about 1.6" at 300yards which is ok but know where near good enough as my 300wsm shoots all over it at this distance.

I will keep you posted on the results.

For interest my research has drifted between Bench Rest central in the states, Accurate shooter.com, ADI powder site, and talking with leading benchrest shooter Stuart Elliot. There has been about 20 hours of reading involved and research time i just logged the times for interest when ever i was researching.

All bullets will be batched, junkie'ed, base to ogive checked, meplat trimmed and pointed, they will all also be moly coated as i believe that Moly certainly aids in non cleaning throughout a match.

Anyway the adventure begins this weekend.

cheers and good shooting to all
Les

[Anthony Hall]

Mate if the pretty red gun doesn't shoot, I could give you a few hundred for it and take your troubles away for you :)

Then of course come and kick your arse with it just for fun...

Anthony

[Les Fraser]

Ahh Anthony you could be right but for now you are second in SOTY yes!!!!!!

But with your form over the past two years this year may well be your first SOTY win i guess we will find out in December.

And remember the one's you kick on the way to the top are the ones you kiss on the way down!!!!!

cheers mate Les

[Anthony Hall]

Lol,

Kicking, kissing, on the way up or the way down....winning bets or losing them and paying gracefully.,from the rooster to the feather duster, running dead last with crow guns, penthouse to shit house..clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.... or vise versa....trying to hit a postage stamp 1/2 a kilometre away..what matters is consistant results, doing your best and having fun !!

It is amazingly competitive out there these day and getting a win or podium place at shoots takes a lot of work in preperation and shooting..... but sledging and hanging shit on the other competitors is part of the fun of the sport :)

I love the sense of humour and fun that the competitors have.. we are all there to win and spend a lot of time and money to do so, but equally I enjoy the  way everyone is happy to help others and enjoy themselves, this sport is truly unique and in my opinion rates as a top level sport however you look at it....

Cheers

Anthony

PS as for SOTY... bring it on..... I think there are plenty of people that could play a part.... I won the federal cup last year and was in the lead for soty for a while..... but finished 2nd, this year you won canberra and lead now.... but it is november that counts.....

[Russell Le Maitre]

Hi les. When l was working up a load for the warbird l tried 180 ,190  and 200. None of them were happy. Just by chance I tried 168 bergers. It loved them.

[Ken Melgaard]

Why go past the 6mm BR or one of the Improved versions!!
You have good barrel, brass and bullets and its easy to get them to shoot well with any of the powder or primers
Just look at the results both from here and the US (600 yards) shoots and what's winning
I have been looking a building a HG so for me it's the Dasher  with its bit extra velocity over the standard BR
From reading some of the old Accurate Rifle forum and Sam Halls comments as he decided to put a 6.5x 47 Lapua barrel on his HG as he was wanting to beat the wind in NC and thought the bit better BC would work but he gave up on it as he just got too many fliers!! So went back to the 6mm and had more confidence in his rifles and loads and allow a bit more for the wind but not giving anything up for accuracy which is what counts and being to concerend about being able to see one's bullets holes

[Michael Bell]

    Ken's certainly got it right. Build any rifle ( light or heavy ) on the 6 BR  platform and providing your rifle is built well  with the right barrel ( 8 twist for 103 to 108 grn bullets ) and you put in the work to tune it correctly, you will undoubtedly be competitive.
600 yard shooting in the US is definitely dominated by the 6 's ( mainly the Dasher ) with many shooters using their light gun in both categories and having success.
Going with the flow is the path of least resistance but it can be hard to suppress the need to be an individual. Experimenters will always exist but unfortunately with 500 fly I think they will only have success in heavy gun category as our rules don't allow the use of muzzle brakes. This surely limits the light rifle category to mild recoiling calibre's of which the 6 br and it's ilk are king of the hill.

At the Pennsylvania 1000 yrd rifle club in 2012 in heavy gun, 69 rifles returned groups under 6". 20 of these were WSM's ( 19 30's & 1 7mm ).There were 10   6 Dashers,  9  .308 Baer's,  7   6.5 x 284's & the others were made up of various 30 cal's. In light gun only 35 rifles shot under 6".  12 were 30 WSM's, ( muzzle brakes allowed ) 8 were 6 x 47 L's, 6 were 6.5 x 284's and only 4 were Dashers!

Now I know 1000yrd is a lot different to our 500 fly but to shoot under 6"s at 1000 yards those bullets must be passing through the 500 meter mark well under 2"s ( I'm guessing at this but I'm sure I'm close ).This means there are certainly other calibres that are extremely accurate with the WSM clearly the most successful.( at 1000 yards ).
The one stat that stands out to me is the lack of 7mm's which has me wondering why my next heavy gun project is going to be a 7 mm Shehane.......... oopps!

[Les Fraser]

This is a great topic because it has brought out of the woodwork some very valid points. I guess owning a hot 6mm and a 300WSM that shoots well i have been very fortunate. But there are any number of other calibers that shoot well. I guess the recoil and return to battery after recoil are factors to consider. I am currently working on a couple of projects such as the 280 Ackley and a 257WM -6mm with 115 grn projectiles. I don't know how good they will be but there lies the challenge i guess.

Remembering back to 2007 when i started the fly there were not to many 6x47L that were producing wins in the sport and there were any number of people saying they were not the shooter they had been posted to be. Another unlucky caliber which i think is really accurate is the 6.5x47L but because no one has earnt a win it hasn't had any good press as yet.

Other calibers that i can remember shooting well is the 6.5x284, 7mm jacko, and just recently seen Peter Varley's 284 in a light gun which shoots the lights out.

I am thinking that a big 30 or 7mm in a heavy is a great project  does it win all the time no but if we all shoot dashers, 6BR, 6BRDX and the like then shooting of the fly wouldn't hold that mystic appeal. I know that Anthony has brought a 30 BOO BOO and when it is tuned will be very competitive indeed.

The attraction for the fly for me is the thrill of the chase finding that combination that works super tightly at 500m and gives you that confidence to experiment and make that gutsy wind call half way through the course of fire.

In short range 6PPC reigns supreme and there are not to many people who venture out of the woods. I don't want to be one of the followers i guess i want to experiment and go that extra yard looking for that elusive edge.

Just some thoughts
cheers to all
Les