Using a magazine for CF and RF fly rule

[Stuart Pethy]

Hi Guys
just a quick question
can someone show me where in the rules, Benchrest or Fly where is says you cannot use a magazine
all i see is 8 rounds my be displayed at start but nothing about magazines
what is stopping someone from displaying 8 rounds at start, the commence fire given and someone loading up those rounds into a magazine and shooting them.
the question has been asked and i see nothing in rules to say they can not do this
?????
cheers  
Pethy

[Anthony Hall]

Hi Stuart,

Very good question.  I have always been of the opinion that Benchrest specifically required single load only (no magazine use).....  

But I am now reasonably familiar with both rule books due to the combining and new rule book process.....and I am fairly sure that it is not specifically mentioned in either book.  It may be in IRB for rimfire, but that is not applicable to the Fly.

Which would allow one to load a magazine and shoot from that in theory I guess, magazine would have to be loaded after the commence fire is given.

Maybe someone else knows where or why we do not allow magazine feed in Fly ?

To me there is no real advantage as a single shot action is generally more accurate than a magazine operated one anyway. Not to mention hand loading each round reduces opportunity for damage to the projectile on the way from the magazine to the chamber.

But, we need to either add a rule specifically excluding it, or just allow it..... I suggest leave it alone and allow it, but am interested to hear other opinions.

Cheers

Anthony

[max coady]

Men
With out reading all the rule books, it could be in there.
I think it is a range rule.
If you wish to use a magazine, then there should be range officer standing  along side of you to check that the rifle is clear.
I could be wrong here.
Max

[Stuart Pethy]

thanks Anthony
yeah it has mainly come from the Rimfire blokes as they are using mag feed guns and find it difficult to single feed
and yes they would have to show 8 rounds on the bench and the empty mag on the bench next to it before the commence fire is given, once commence fore is given they could then load their mags

would like to hear other opinions also

cheers

[Les Fraser]

hi Stuart yeh i think that loading from a magazine is problematic given the command to cease fire and unload should there be an emergency the clearing of the rifle would in all purpose be the bolt and magazine if loaded. If rimfire shooters (and i shoot this as well) feel that loading single is an issue they can purchase or make a carrier false magazine that has a grove in the top of it i know lowey tuners makes alot of them but you can make one your self.

But the general rule will apply if it is NOT in the rule book then it would be up to the range officer and event holder to make this determination and lay this out in the briefing prior to the match. Competitors always have the opportunity to email or call match organizers for advice.

cheers Les

[Dave Groves]

Hi All,
           it is my view that the Fly should be single load only with no magazine use regardless of class (RF/CF)

When I started shooting the event I was using magazine fed rifles and asked Jim McKinley if I could use the magazine, the answer was "No, no magazine feed"

I think we should deal with this in the rulebook.

If not dealt with in the rulebook then I suppose I will have to add  a notice to the adverts for Canberra stating single load only.

Cheers.

Dave.

[Tim Pavey]

The rules state that the command remove bolts from rifles is given at the end of each relay , they do not say remove magazines.
This would indicate magazines are not to be used, and many SSAA RANGES  do not permit the use of magazine feed unless under the direct supervision of a range officer.
However I do agree that the distinction of  single round feed only should be included in the rules.
Cheers
Tim

[john mc quire]

   Hello Dave   I completely agree with  you   -- I have always been told that fly was single feed  only  without a magazine and I do think that it should be in the rules   --   single load ramps  are available for most rifles  or can be made   --  the range officers have enough work to do now  without having to watch over  shooters  using magazines
                                 john mc

[Stuart Pethy]

i agree with you guys to, but as it isn't written in the rules the guys will complain and fight with this rule. technically if its not in the rules how can you enforce it  

[Anthony Hall]

Hi All,

Ok, I will address it in the new rule book proposal..... but, I guess until that comes into force there is no way to enforce no magazines, so it is up to local ranges and the Range officer in charge I guess.

If the range and range officer allow it, fair enough I guess.

Cheers,

Anthony

[Anthony Hall]

Hi All,
Here is a copy of the email and new version of the proposed rule book I have just sent in for approval, I think that clarifies both of the points made recently.

Hi Billo

A couple of further minor corrections to the proposed Rule Book.  After more discussion, the following two amendments have been made.  The first to clarify that no magazines are to be used during the competition.  And the second to remove an apparently contradictory wording in the spotting definitions.

Add the words in bold below:
3.3.1.2    Competitors may use a maximum of eight rounds per target; 5 rounds on the target for scoring, and a maximum of  3 rounds for sighting on a sighting target (paper, steel or other medium). No more than 8 rounds are permitted on the competitors bench during the course of fire.  All rounds are to be single loaded (no multiple rounds in a magazine).

Deleted the words in bold.
3.12.1  A spotter may,:
Call fall of shot, bring attention to changes to wind flags, weather or mirage conditions, advise the shooter to correct elevation or windage settings (on the rifle scope), advise a shooter to stop shooting or continue shooting ("Stop, that third flag has changed

Neither of these change the intent or integrity of the rules in any way, they just clarify current practice.

Kind regards,

Anthony

[Andy Prowse]

As the matter of single loading has been raised. I personally condone the full use of magazines during both practice and matchs. They were designed to be used in the particular firearm if so fitted, so why restrict their use artifically? [not by State legislation]

I would like to ask some questions & hopefully get some answers before the "rule book" is changed. "Just because" is not a valid reason when it comes to firearms safety. Sounds like that Howard bugger, he does not like guns, so .......
We should not takes the same attitude as responsible competitors and firearm users.

With regard to single round loading and having to have an RO on hand if you actually  use a magazine fed rifle (of any action, bolt, lever, pump or otherwise).
My research on this over many years is it only a range by range requirement [local range requirement due to someone getting their knickers in a knot in the past] and was probably introduced when we were allowed semi-autos.
Possibly due to a 'loose/damaged trigger/sear", the firearm could be capable of an unintended discharge, a second  round may occur, this can be attributed to poor maintenance and or lack of experience / user instruction. I have never found in any shooting rules or publications any valid/safety reason for single round loading!

When I have posed the question over the past 25 years, the response has ALWAYS been: this is how we have always done it or it was brought in by Mr XX RO or as mentioned in posts above. No one has stated it is a requirement because of "this safety reason", always to date no verifiable facts to support the supposed "rule".
I would like an answer from the very experienced competitors here as to the evidence/facts as to the why.

Second question: Bolts out = how do I do this with a lever or drop bolt action rifle? [eg. Ruger No1 in 300WinMag.]
If there are going to exceptions to the rules, they need to be listed for every possible action/receiver OR change the range order from 'bolts out' to 'actions open & magazines out' - to accommodate the other actions which are legal in this country.

When running a range, I have always operated on "action open" & magazine out / cleared or feed rod/spring (for tube fed) removed.

Are we going to fully move to the "nanny state" & have to have paperwork signed off by two witnesses to state the "whatever" is done during a match? or are we going to trust the competitor [we are or should be responsible adults or juniors under instruction] and continue to use empty chamber indicators and not approach the shooting bench when anyone is forward of the firing line & range closed for shooting?

I would much appreciate factual & verifiable evidence or reasons which are proven with regards to the above.
{anything else is just hearsay & not sustainable in a reasoned discussion}

Andy.

[Anthony Hall]

Hi Andy,

There are a couple of quick points that I see, Firstly the "Fly" is a Benchrest match, and by far and away the majority of competitive benchrest rifles are single feed.

Secondly, these rules only apply to registered matches..... so a local 300 Fly can run whatever course of fire, equipment and magazine rules they like (custom, factory, Light Gun, Heavy Gun etc).

Also, the "Remove Bolts" is a command, not a rule.  In the rules, you can use any action, any stock and any scope.... so lever, pump, break barrel or the like are all allowed, it is up to the local range to apply safety procedures accordingly.

At most (not all) ranges we operate on a modified standing orders as these matches are a controlled environment.  If we can have all Bolts removed and no magazines used..... the range officers can elect to declare the range safe and closed and allow competitors to remove rifles from the benches and the next shooter setup while target crew are forward.  Loaded Magazines complicate this.

Back to the first point.  For Silhouette, Field Rifle, 3P, Military rifle and factory/hunter class events....magazine use would seem appropriate and we certainly allow full use of them on our range for both practice and competition. But for a benchrest match, it is generally single feed only.  Not because of safety or any other reason that that is what the match is.  Same as not allowing a 20lb rifle in light gun.... it is not because of a Nanny State or artificial restriction.... it is simply what the event or class is.

Cheers

Anthony

[Andy Prowse]

Thanks for clearing up the questions Anthony. I will take the answers into consideration when planning a "non registered" Fly shoot at Windamere.