The Perfect Fly rifle

[David Dundas]

All

I asked this question the other day at the range and was surprised by all who contributed, so I thought I would get your thoughts as well. Makes for great info for someone reference or just dream about.
So, you have just won lotto and you want to build a light fly rifle for the 500 metre event, whats the best action, barell, stock and trigger that would go togther to make a owner proud?
We will want to know which calibre as well and why. ie better balistics etc or just easier to see the holes in the paper.
Maybe you would just take a blank check to gunsmith xyz and ask him to build you his prefect rifle, would like to hear all your answers.

Of course it will have a March or Nightforce scope on it.

Thanks

David Dundas

[Anthony Hall]

Hi mate,

You will get many and varied answers to that one I am sure.... for me it would be

Firstly I would talk to one of the good gun smiths, like Pete VM, Shane Clancy or John Giles .... I would get them to order me a Bat 3 lug action, a Jewel Trigger and a custom made laminated stock.  I would order 4 x Lilja Barrels and have 2 chambered exactly the same in either 6BR or 6 Dasher, and 2 chambered in Probably 6.5-284 (remember we don't care about barrel life or money).  I would have it built as a switch barrel and fitted with a March Scope and a custom made hard case.

I would have the smith make a full set of custom inline dies to match each of the chamberings, and supply all the barrel change gear to suit.

It would be made to be around 16.8lb with the heaviest barrel, scope caps etc all fitted.

My reason for 2 barrels identical in each caliber is you can then run them both in and allocate the best as a match barrel and use the other for club shoots and fire forming etc... also when you want another new barrel you don't have to be with out the rifle..... And the reason for 6mm is that I think 6BR/Dasher/6BRX are great calibers for a light gun and then the 6.5-284 for a balistics edge for windy days.....

I would also offer to pay a premium to get it all quickly and maybe that way have it all well inside 12 months.

By the way.... how much did you win :)

Cheers

Anthony

PS I guess you could have lots of rifles made... but you specified only one.

[Pete van Meurs]

Although I concur with many  of Anthony's suggestons my experience both as a constructor and shooter over ten or more years brings in a few other ideas. As for the cartridge - experience has shown that ultimate accuracy (potential of .1 moa) will be found with the smaller cases relative to their bore size.
The popularity of the 6mmBR and its derivatives (6mm Dasher/BRX) is testimony to this . Other combinations tend to lead to increased recoil, although the 6.5x47 Lapua  seems to be able to deliver that slightly bigger bullet hole without too much recoil and still offer that .1 moa accuracy using the bullet range of 120 to 130gn, but for no improvement in sheer accuracy.
The 6.5/284 has long been a standard choice  and continues to this day. It has the better ballistics but has an accuracy potential of probably about .2 moa. I always have both a 6mmDasher and a 6.5/284 on hand for this (LG) class and will choose to suit the conditions. My advice is that if you have to settle on one or the other  - go with the 6mmBR or it's derivatives. They are cheap to set up for and cheap to feed.
Barrels - Anthony mentioned only Lilja for reasons  unknown to me. Any of the well-known makers of match-grade barrels have been seen in the results lists. My personal preference is the Australian made Maddco. I have used Maddco barrels almost to the exclusion of all others in my years as a competetve shooter and can highly reccomend them.
Actions - Despite owning a number of rifles built on 'Custom' actions I seem to have collected most of my trophies shooting with Remington based rifles. For sheer user-friendliness there is no question that a 'Custom' action is the way to go. Any Stiller, Stolle, Nesika, Bat etc will do the job. But never think that accuracy will be enhanced by your choice of action. Accuracy is all about the three "B's" - Barrels, Bullets, Butt-nuts.
Stocks - personal preference  here when it comes to shape or material. Most of our rifles use laminated wood stocks made by Ken Noye (03-53671062) - an Aussie product.
That's it for now.
Pete

[Steven Butcher]

This was asked at the range and the response from the C/F guys was to use 308win.

I've got a spare Omark that I'm looking to build a 6mm BR-K (6BR that has the 243 Win case length) this is to use for F-Open and Fly.

[David Dundas]

Hi Steve

Indeed, old Bruce the armourer at Silverdale just said 308, 308, 308 over and over again. I think he said he like the Remington actions as well and no one was game to say anything different.
Keep the sugestions comming, really great stuff. I really liked the idea of getting two barrels up front, so simple yet so good for little more cost.
The shooters here have hundreds of years of shooting experience, so I expect their to be some differences in opinions so keep them comming - some of the things I don't even understand, but I will aks or go way and look them up which is also enjoyable. I was browsing the remington pages yesterday and found they have a custom shop!

I did the something similar with my Rimfire rifles that are being built now.  I found a good gunsmith and asked him to build two rifles he would be proud of based on a Stiller action, no other instructions given but he did come back and ask what color stock I would like. ie Blue, Red and black always looks good to me on a rifle.

So can not wait to get my rilfes:
Heavy rimfire
PSECO built Stiller Copperhead, RBLP, Lilja 4 grove barrel with EPS chamber, Jewel trigger, Heavy McMillain stock, Kelby bases and rings and of course glue in bedding.
Will have to save some pennies for the March scope to put on it, but will be a 10-60X with 3/16 dot.

Light rimfire
PSECO built Stiller Lonestar 25x repeater, RBRP, Lilja 4 grove barrel with EPS chamber, Jewel trigger, light McMillain stock, Kelby bases and rings and of course glue in bedding. Have a Leupold 6x competition scope ready to screw on.


Not won the lotto yet, but I keep putting in my tickets and maybe 2012 will be my year.


Thanks

David Dundas

[Steven Butcher]

Forgot to add that I have a Ken Noye stock for my F-Std omark and it is great. I got the LMBR style, but have also seen his L1M (I think that is it) and they are very well made, highly recommend them.

[Jugs (Jaegen)]

Now all you 308 shooters don't take this the wrong way

But as a fly rifle maybe doesn't quite cut the mustard.

I loved my 6.5-284 and will go back to it one day, but it took me a while to learn how to shoot it.  The dasher is great also.

I have got to say that my 300ZNK (30-284 inproved) is good but you have to get your head around the drifty 30 cals, but not for the faint hearted in a light gun.

I am a fan of the 3 lug but as pete said the action is only a small part of the total package.  The most important part of a rifle is that you have to like it, if in your head its not right then no matter how good the rifle it will never shoot with you shooting it.

Keep asking around, but my opinion is ask at fly shoots if you are getting answers of 308 then I think you are at f std shoot.  The fly is one of the harder BR shoots around and therefore requires a step up in performance.

Jugs

[Pete van Meurs]

In response to Jaegens reply to Steven B, I would offer the following advice. Firstly when discussing long range shooting with fellow shooters always make a point of asking which discipline (if any) they actively compete in. If they do not compete you can best walk away in most cases - much so-called knowledge is hear-say crap. Had occasion recently to speak with a fellow shooting a 308 Blaser who had been assured by the dealer that it was the pre-eminent long range cartridge. As the conversation progressed I mentioned that I used a 6mmBR for 500mt Fly. He had never heard of the cartridge and after I showed him an example he was amused, stating that the thing would never even reach the target and walked off convinced that I was a total idiot.
For the sake of the un-initiated I will advise that 'Full-Bore' rules allow only 223Rem (5.56 Nato) and 308Win (7.62 Nato) in Target Rifle and 'F' Std classes - hence the predominance of same (not 'cause they are better!) By Fly standards they are a 'drifty" pair (albeit accurate).
As for the Omark action - well  there are some real limitations here. Not necessarily safety or accuracy based but some serious issues with regard to user-friendliness and also re-barreling considerations that will affect cost.
I do not know where you are based but I would suggest you visit a Fly match sooner rather than later to get a better idea of what it's all about.

Pete

[Anthony Hall]

That situation sounds like the perfect opportunity for a hustle......

"ok mate, you are probably right that my pissy little 6mm cartridge won't be much good by 500m.... but just for fun I am prepared to bet you $100 cash that if we each shoot a 5 shot group onto a fly target at 500m with 3 sighters on the silly steel plates that hang under the targets I will score better than your expensive blaser .308.... I have another $100 that says that my group will be smaller than yours.... but if you are too chicken to take it up :)..."

Then follow that up with the same challenge at 1000 yards...... maybe for double the money.

Just for fun of course

Anthony

[Les Fraser]

Hi Anthony we all know how well your rifle shoots but laying a bet will not improve the context of the post and just remember that i think a small group record at 1000yards still belongs to Clifford who shot it with a .308 some years back in Canberra.

I think that there is no one particular rifle that is perfect for fly it is what you have faith in. A rifle is just and instrument of accuracy but it is in your head where the real advantage is. I think that any 6mm, 6.5. 7mm 30cal will do the job you want. The 6.5x47l that i am building for a loaner will shoot well enough to win fly matches otherwise i wouldn't be building it. For me it is about the prep and the research well before you buy a rifle.

I have made poor decisions in the past with builds but i have made them shoot. My 300wsm has only winchester brass and 190grn sierra's but that is what it liked.

Before building a rifle think about this, what are the top 20 rifles at a match, can i get good brass for the caliber i like, do some research talk to shooter on here, read books, use the internet, what projectiles do i run, can i handle the recoil of this rifle (there is no point in driving a pill a thousand miles and hour if you can't steer it in the right direction.

a custom action would be the only suggestion i would give and a proper match trigger like a Jewell.

Use your head not your wallet to win matches.....

cheers and good shooting to all

[Anthony Hall]

LOL... my joke about the bet was related to the naivety of the guys comments telling Pete that the 6br not even reaching the target at 500m... of course his 308 blaser with factory ammo would be much better suited to long range :)

[David Dundas]

Thanks So much everyone.

I am now armed with a little knowledge if I want to make a jump to the 500 Fly. My next thing to do is come a long to a couple of matches and have a look.

Regards

Dave Dundas

[Steven Butcher]

I started out with F-Class and being in Sydney F-Class is easier to get to. The spare omark I have has a barrel adapter fitted already and would be a cheap way for me to get into fly shooting as I already own the rifle. If I get serious about CF fly (shooting rimfire fly already) I would look at a better rifle build.

The worst that the omark will cost me is a new barrel and stock and modifying a trigger.

[Les Fraser]

threads like this is what the forum is all about helping everyone with information so they can make their own mind up. And for anyone wishing to try the sport come along to a shoot there are any number of folks willing to help out. As i have said before i try and save a few shots out of the 50 i load for a match so someone can have a try at it.

500m fly is probably the hardest shooting i have ever done with the exception of standing air rifle which i must say is the hardest for me anyway.

There are any number of great shooters that look at this forum each day and contribute, Anthony, Pete VM, jugsy, stuart just to name a few that have started great conversations about improving the sport. If you have a question or an idea that you think may be good to talk about that will improve your shooting or the performance of others then please post......

cheers Les

[Denis Aarons]

Im interested to see that there are no mentions of a 7mm variant.  The Bereger Hybrids have a great BC.

Is that because the increased recoil may outweigh the BC advantage or is it just because the cartidge isn't as efficient?

It would have to be a better option than a .308 wouldn't it?

Denis.

[Anthony Hall]

Hi Dennis,

I think it has a lot to do with good pills being available..... yes the Berger's have great BC and on paper should be better than .308, but have yet to enjoy the success of the 6mm & 30 cal stuff that sit either side of them...

There is lots of choice in 6mm and 30 cal, only a few in 7mm and while some 7mm's have done well in F class they do not seem to have enjoyed much success in fly and benchrest circles in Australia...

Having said all that, I  have a 7mm barrel (win .284) that I plan to fit and try out over the next few months, I will try Berger and Sierra projectiles and see how it goes.

Cheers

Anthony

[Alan Esler]

Hi Les,
I thought Richard Wild's 2.0 something inches he shot at the ASG  in 2010 with stuarts 6.5x47 was the Aussie record for 1000yds?

[Sebastian Lambang]

Quote: All

I asked this question the other day at the range and was surprised by all who contributed, so I thought I would get your thoughts as well. Makes for great info for someone reference or just dream about.
So, you have just won lotto and you want to build a light fly rifle for the 500 metre event, whats the best action, barell, stock and trigger that would go togther to make a owner proud?
We will want to know which calibre as well and why. ie better balistics etc or just easier to see the holes in the paper.
Maybe you would just take a blank check to gunsmith xyz and ask him to build you his prefect rifle, would like to hear all your answers.

Of course it will have a March or Nightforce scope on it.

Thanks

David Dundas


Personally I will choose these combinations:
Stolle type receiver (not round action) - 'cause from machining standpoint it's more difficult & needs higher skill to make. More rigid in the same weight, more larger surface for glue in.  
RBLP with micro right port - 'cause it will be faster. A drop port will be very nice too.
A reliable & smooth extractor - is a must.
Ejector is not a must - my preference is light tension only. I reduced mine.
7mm cal - I love my .284win straight - great BC, easier to see bullet holes at 500 - yet light/manageable recoil.
(A 6.5 cal should be good too, but I don't have one so can't speak).
Light neck turn - mine is .316 - I think it's just fine.
.200 freebore or more - mine is .120 only.
A nice, smooth - chamber & muzzle crown.
Extra wide fore end stock - 6" or more.
Extra wide buttstock - straighter angle, more parallel to the front.
Low rider carbon fiber stock & light wood combination - it dampens the vibration very well, yet light & rigid.
Balance point of the rifle somewhere in between 2" - 4" in front of the receiver face.
Any (brand) barrel that can/will shoot - S/S.
Heavy taper, at least 29" long - mine is a Maddco 1:9, 30", 1 1/4 taper.
One piece base/rings - it's more stronger & secure from machining standpoint, yet light (can be made at 3.5 oz only)
March scope, for sure.
A nice, smooth & crisp - properly adjusted & timed 2 - 2.5 oz trigger, either Jewell or Kelbly's.


seb.

[Les Fraser]

yeh mate i think you are right i prior to that it was a .308
cheers Les

[Pete van Meurs]

I would immediately argue the issue of barrel length. As it is accuracy we want and any velocity in the 2800 to 3000 fps range seems ideal for VLD bullets then why spend extra dough for a longer barrel? Our preferred standard for LG is 26". Longer barrels have a tendency to copper foul sooner due to the heat build-up in the jacket as the bullet traverses those extra inches - if a barrel needs cleaning during a match I consider it useless. In addition I have a problem with the extra weight overhanging the front rest - prefer to see as much weight as possible between the bags.
As for Seb's comment about round versus square actions - I get around this really simply. All round actions are 'screwed and glued' - thats for 'glue-ins' of course - if it's a bolt-in it really does not matter much.
On the subject of bullet hole size in LG - learn to live with the invisible bullet hole if recoil is an issue (as it is for both myself and Lee-Anne) good fortune to the others.

Pete