Factory fly gun rules question

[chappo (Greg Chapman)]

I have had a fresh read of the factory 300m fly rules and I have an issue with  the matter of barrel replacement being only factory barrels. Where can I purchase factory barrels for my two sako L461's?  I contacted Beretta Australia, the oz importer for sako, and they laughed at me.

I think this point in the fly rules needs some tweaking.

So what's everyone's thoughts?

"

[john mc quire]

      I had the same problem with my .222 Sako   -- needed a new barrel  and to keep it within the rules  for hunter class  I sent it back to Sako  to get it re-barreled     -- I am not the only person who has done this   --    they replaced the  barrel with  a stainless one  --   and it shoots just great    --      john mc quire

[chappo (Greg Chapman)]

Interesting John. If it's not too rude can I ask the cost? Also wonder if they can do another 6ppc barrel as they don't offer that calibre anymore.

[john mc quire]

           Hi Chappo     it was  about two years ago when I had mine  re-barreled   and the cost was quite good   -- about $800 including  postage    --  and I think that they will supply a barrel for any original calibre  they produced   -- the down side was that it took  six months  for it all to happen   --    
                                      john mc

[Les Fraser]

Yeh Chappo i think there is merrit in what you have said, i have 22-250 Varmit special that was offered in 1983 straight from the factory it is the one i have won the 300 with off a set of harris bipods. I am sure with confidence that this is not offered anymore as it is a straight taper heavy factory barrel  with Varmit special stamped on it model 700 BDL.

I think that the rules could be changed to Barrel replacement to be only in the same caliber and configuration as the original such as barrel twist, neck size and be able to fit any factory round.

If johns rifle was not brought out with a stainless barrel then by sako putting one in that would then be a custom shop fitting therefor would not be eligable for factory.

The 22/250 Barrel is a chrome moly heavy 1.14 twist with special markings so when she goes which could be any time as i have no idea how many thousands of rounds i have fired through the crow gun ( and there has been a lot of crows over the years) i will fit a stainless barrel and then get another factory rifle out of the cupboard and try it.

what do the others think???

[Rod Davies]

I agree with Les about an aftermarket barrel as long as it is similar profile, twist etc as factory and be able to fire a factory loaded round which the gun was available in. There are quite a few crow and rabbit guns out there which are light walkabout hunting guns, but cant be used as they have worn out their original barrel.

[Anthony Hall]

Hi All,

It is a reasonable topic for further discussion, and there has already been quite a lot, both online and in person over the last couple of years.

PvM might chime in at some point regarding the viability and availability of factory replacement barrels.... but in my opinion one of the main reason factory stamped barrels in a calibre and twist in which the rifle was available, was chosen as the criteria, is that it is impossible to police aftermarket barrels... there is no way we are going to measure chambers, neck dimensions or twist rates at a shoot !!

My understand is that if you buy a "Sako", "Remmington" "Tikka", "Howa" etc stamped and chambered barrel for your rifle of that brand and have it fitted by either the factory or a gun smith as a replacement in a calibre and twist that was available in that model.... then no problems....

If it is a different profile or material (ie blued or stainless) heavier or lighter, fluted or unfluted according to what is available to buy at the time.... no problems.... it is still an off the shelf product that takes out custom match grade barrels that have potentially been chambered & trued etc for competition use....

Remember that the idea of this event is for entry level equipment to be competitive...... we have custom class to do whatever we like !!

Cheers

Anthony

[chappo (Greg Chapman)]

Reasonable arguments there Anthony, but the rules currently do not state that. They say it must be a factory barrel, now I can't buy factory sako L461 barrels.  I think Les idea of adding must be able to chamber and fire a factory round is a good amendment.

The other rules ie stocks, trigger and scope restrictions pretty well stop the pseudo custom factory build when combined with the above amendment re barrels.  As 300 is not a registered match I don't really see the issue, the match committee should have the final say re factory or custom if there is any ambiguity.

Yes it is supposed to be a starter style category but I shouldn't have to buy a new gun every time I wear a barrel out, especially as my factory gun will double as a paddock gun and see some hot varmint sessions.

It's something that needs some lively discussion and some reasonableness applied.
Just my two cents anyway.

Chappo

[Pete van Meurs]

Hi all,

Lee-Anne alerted me to this thread and I must say I am somewhat aghast that it got this far. Let us please make absolutely certain that we are all on the same train here. My understanding is that  'Factory' class came into being in order to attract first-time shooters to have a go at the 300 Fly. The fact that so many seasoned competitors have opted to double enter is probably regrettable in itself. However, if their equipment is on par with the new guy then we have allowed it in order to make up numbers. None the less, most times this event is won by a seasoned shooter which can potentially drive the newbies away as he/she would probably expect to be competing against others of similar standing. At our club matches at Eagle Park it is not prohibited for an experienced guy (or gal) to enter 'Factory' class but it is tacitly understood that it would be bad form to do so.

All this discussion of re-barreling has so far come from guys who have 'Custom' class rifles (and compete regularly in this class) and now would appear to the "outsider" to be looking to possibly improve their odds among themselves in Factory class. At no stage has anyone called for input by those that shoot 'Factory' class only.  Frankly this is crap, we have to go back to basics.

Factory class is for beginners (of sorts).

If a genuine factory barrel is not available then park it (in so far as using it in a match is concerned) and bad luck.  The commercial cost of a re-barrel is not far short of the price of many new rifles, so no bitching about cost! Let 'luck of the draw' determine if you have a good one rather than having a good one by design!!!!!!!!!!

Accuracy is all about the "Three B's". Barrels, Bullets and Butt-nuts. In 'Factory' class one is allowed to become a better 'Butt-nut' with practice and/or experience. It is also expected that the shooter will use hand-loaded ammo with a 'Bullet' that has shown to work well in the factory-fitted barrel. However, to up-grade the 'Barrel' is definitely not on in my view, as experience (over the past lots and lots of years) has shown that there is almost invariably a decided improvement in accuracy over the original offering.

Where to from here? If an organising club is silly enough to foot the bill for three sets of trophies then we could split "Factory" class into three divisions. 'Standard' would be rifles as per current rules used by relative new-comers, 'Advanced' would have the same gear but seasoned competitors, 'Expert' would be the preserve of the re-barreled mob. If this sounds like a ridiculous idea, you are dead right!!!!!!

I can't think of a better way to stuff-up 'Factory' class than allowing re-barrels. Re-stocking (no 3" fore-ends) would be reasonable if the 'Sporting' nature of the rifle was retained, but this is once again subject to abuse and hard to determine and police. "FACTORY" means "FACTORY" with the allowed mods of trigger and bedding as these are common-place on field rifles. Want to re-barrel your  favourite hunting rifle and shoot it in a match? No problem - enter 'Custom' class.

If you want to better fill your day (as a seasoned competitor) then offer to spot for a newbie and spend time talking to these people offering what assistance you can. This will do so much more for the sport than trying to win the 'Novice' trophy.

As a result of all the fore-going I state here and now that I will never again enter 'Factory' class as a serious entrant. Let me qualify that by saying that I might enter on a 'pre-disqualified' basis just to see how I might have fared against other seasoned shooters just for the fun of it. I think it behoves others in my situation to consider doing the same. Leave the 'Novice' class to the novices!

That's about it for now. Look forward to your responses.            

 Pete  

[Anthony Hall]

lol.... that's putting it in perspective with a sledge hammer
Ik rollen rond lachen

 It is a fact that the origin of "Factory Class" was to encourage newer shooters to have a go... however anytime you get a competitive group entering an event, there will be the need to curtail some things with rules, that's part of the competition and the ones we have do a reasonable job of this....

Good healthy discussion does not hurt, and PvM has certainly expressed a valid perspective and I am sure some will agree and some not so much.... I like to have a crack now and then with my factory .308, I know Les has a ball with the crow gun from a bipod ..... but lets all be aware of not making it daunting for the newer/club level shooters.... That said... the event would not be worthwhile to anyone if only 5 people competed in it !!

However you look at it, it is there as a supplementary class...... both for a bit of fun and to encourage the newer shooters to have a go with what they already have in the safe.....

Cheers
Anthony

[Rod Davies]

Some valid points there Pete.
If a separate "sporter" class cant be justified for the more experienced shooters (even with no prizes, just a patch or something), then pre-disqualifying ourselves so we can have an extra bit of a play might be the way to go.
I  wont qualify as a novice, but I rarely get to shoot these days, so any opportunities to sling some extra lead down range in another class would always be welcome.

[Les Fraser]

Well this cerainly kicked a right little thread off, i agree with every thing pretty much i shoot factory to dust the 'crowie' off and to shoot another class lets face it if we are at Wagga and enjoying the company why the hell not shoot every thing you can. In fact here is an offer i will load the crowie for the match and will swap it with someone else on the line with a comparative rifle and scope for the factory class if they want but it has to be shot with the Bipod and a rear sand bag. Like Rod said anytime i can throw some lead down range i take it. Anthony and i take the piss out of each other and have a blast at three hundred.

There are lots of things you can do to even the field for the new shooters such as if you have won a 300 factory class you start at - 20 points, second -10, third -5 that way the newbie gets a headstart from the outset which makes everyone try harder. Golf does it with success.

I am totally supportive of Pete's comments about helping new shooters we all need to do that, I built a rifle at my own cost for newbies to use and it was used by regular shooters more so than anyone else i did this against lots of comments from regular shooters infact one said you are mad no one will use it but i did it anyway another said it didn't shoot but i got in the dirty dozen.

We could have a trophy for the top novice on the day first time fly shooter !!! there are lots of ideas and all worth a little more thought!!!!

cheers to all

swapper for the crowie on the day drop us an email with your rifles set up

I just like to shoot

for interest Crowie neck .256 load 35.5 8208 52 grn BTHP Sierra twist 1:14 chamber sloppy you nearly could fit a 220 swift case in.  

[chappo (Greg Chapman)]

Interesting response Pete.
You raise some confusing points in my mind. If I understand you correctly any of the known fly shooters who shoot factory are some kind of burglars trying to double their chances at the fake wood. That argument followed to its ultimate conclusion would mean that any one who shoots both LG and HG is the same kind of burglar. Of course some people shoot both for increased chances as well as more trigger time.

So that is perfectly acceptable as long as it is LG and HG and not factory. Many people cannot afford to build a HG and a LG.  So as i CANNOT afford to build a HG I am unable to get more trigger time, but those who CAN afford it, you have no issues with. Sounds a little hypocritical in my mind.

Some of us are varmint hunters as well and why should we only be allowed to compete if we buy a NEW gun every twelve months. There are many people, myself included, who have old sakos , rugers,  etc as a varmint gun. I cannot afford to have a new gun in the safe just for factory fly. I would like a dual purpose gun that I can also use in the paddock.

I am honestly a bit miffed at the double standard suggested.  

The only change suggested to the rules is in replacement barrels and with some strict rules to go along with it.  

I understand your underlying basis that you dont want factory class polluted or destroyed by people building around the rules that I really dont think that is the issue here.

Regards
Chappo.

[Anthony Hall]

Chappo,

I think you are missing the point here.... LG & HG are both full custom class events pitted against others who want to compete at that level, and nothing is stopping you shooting any of your modified varmint rifles in one class and entering your custom gun in the other class... or in fact shooting the one rifle in both classes....  Factory class is totally different.

As for not affording a new rifle every 12 months.... by that logic you would be putting a new barrel in your varmint rifle that regularly.... costing circa $900 each time....  You can buy a new Rem700 in .223 or .308 for $963 and the barrel will last you for 3000+ rounds of factory class shooting..... or even a Tika T3 Varmint for $1300 full retail....

Cheers

Anthony

[chappo (Greg Chapman)]

understand the point but the comment was made along the lines of  entering factory to increase your chances of winning, just stating that is the same as shooting both LG and HG isnt it.

no one should be forced to buy another gun because their paddock gun has a new tube on it.

As for cost of a new gun, that isnt the whole point. It is a run what ya brung event and most varminters have screwed new tubes in their guns. If cost is the issue then my counter argument is I have enough access to tooling and good machinists to get a new tube for well under half the cost of a new gun.

I have been promoting 300fly on AusVarmint forum and have received quite a few PM's about shooting it with a varmint gun, but you guessed it, they have aftermarket tubes.

My whole point in raising this issue is the fact that I think the current mutually agreed upon rules could be modified to be a little more tolerant of non factory barrels.

Factory is one way  that both my son and I can shoot more often with a very limited budget and has been mentioned here the whole point is to shoot more.

anyway only my opinion.
Cheers
Chappo

[Les Fraser]

We all pay our entries to win all of us the replacement tube issue should be separated from the entering the class just to chase more wood. Factory class is there for shooters to have a crack with what they have  to shoot what ya brung, totally agree and as for cost yep you can get a barrel fitted for much less than $900 as some guys do it themselves or have mates rates. Some guys also shoot savage rifles with accutriggers on them which can be set to the limit but you pushout the trigger it becomes a set trigger, some sako's have a pin that makes it a set trigger this cannot be policed but we all rely on the honesty of the shooter to do the right thing.

Theres lots of shooting sports now to try and capture the new shooting market Hunter Class, BR30, Air rifle bench rest, sporter class short range bench rest all of these and many other sports have a common thread people try and shoot their best and produce their best results.

To save the arguement on replacement barrels as already fitted with a standard chamber (factory specifications) that can fit any factory round is a possibility. Getting a barrel fitted is only part of the package when Anthony's 308 gives him one on the check as the recoil off the bag unsupported is reasonable if he can do it 8 times in 7 min then power to him and i don't think it would matter what barrel he had on it.

I don't want to see new shooters turned away ever, in fact that would be detrimental to what we all strive for. If the guys on Ausvarmit want to come and have a go then they should the governing body will decide what class they are in. But you can't expect someone with a TRG Sako, or a Styer or a trued blue printed and profiled Remington to compete with stock standard guns off the shelf.

There is and always will be common equalisers the conditions and the bench draw. Wagga has been shot many times and scoring wise shooters seem to score well to the right side of the range but we have bench draw sorts that out.

Another consideration is that the rules are here for some time yet before a rule changes so there is plenty of time to debate this issue and others.

I will have to try and get Remington to fit a Varmit Special barrel to my 22/250 1983 model hope the cupboard isn't bare...........

otherwise it will be a 17 Rem next on the list

[Pete van Meurs]

Hi all,

Well we really have a can of worms opened good and proper. Plenty of discussion which is good to see.

A couple of comments on the posts of others. Firstly I do not believe any analogy between the 300 and 500 matches can be relevant to this debate, if for no other reason than that a single LG can be used in both classes at 500 and be fully competitive in both as was covered in another recent thread. Can't quite see a factory rifle being competitive in custom class at 300 although one could double enter if prepared for a flogging in custom class. Another idea tossed into the ring by Les was the issue of handicapping shooters based on their ability as shown by their results. I don't think this would be workable as the event is not shot often enough to build a data base from and in the shooting sports the nearest we see is a grading system rather than a full-on handicap.

Next thing I note is that no-one has disputed my statement that re-barreled rifles almost invariably end up significantly more accurate. I will take this one step further. The majority of  re-barreled rifles seem to be heavy barrel versions and, conveniently, most makers of match grade barrels are able to offer factory profiles which makes the gunsmiths life much easier since the barrel channel in the stock does not need to be re-done. Take a scenario that has been repeated in my workshop more often than I care to think about. Pull a Rem 700 VSSF to bits, put the receiver on a mandrel and lightly true -up the front face, lap the lugs then fit a Maddco barrel. These rifles always exhibit accuracy potential not far short of a custom Fly rifle. Still not as user friendly but in experienced hands in a 300 match would likely be only 5 to 8 points behind the winner. Try doing that with a true factory unit. It should be safe to assume that any re-barreled rifle in this day and age will have had a true match grade barrel fitted.

Changing the subject slightly the thought did occur to me that there may well be newbies out there that currently will not have a go because all they have is a re-barreled varminter and they may well feel intimidated if they have to shoot in custom class. How do we get them to the firing line? I think we should entertain some discussion about handicapping the rifle rather than the shooter. Based on a hazy memory of what winning scores for factory class have GENERALLY been relative to custom I think there was about a 20 to 30 point gap. On the basis of my earlier comments then we may consider allowing re-barreled rifles to be used, so long as all other criteria are met, but they would start with a handicap of 20 deficit points. Don't fuss about checking issues like chamber dimensions or barrel brand (we assume that the good stuff is fitted) or even twist rate. Select one of the shooters rounds at random and bag/tag it. Top three get their ammo dismantled and bullet weight checked. If it's too heavy to be stable in the original twist then they get the flick.

Looking forward to further comments.  Pete  

[Paul D]

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[Anthony Hall]

Hi Paul,

That gets close to the Tactical or Varmint class that has been talked about.... the trouble is that those shooters talk it up on web sites, but never actually turn up at matches.... I think their rifles only shoot those amazing groups in forums....  

I agree that there will be a few of us that might shoot it with modified/rebarreled hunting rifles..... but as for attracting new shooters to fly I don't think it will have any impact.

Specific matches have been proposed in the past, both at our local range where a large number or these type of shooters said they would come.... but miraculously never nominate or turn up.... or more recently when Les and I proposed a tactical match on a friday before one of the fly matches...... had great prizes offered and only got a couple of already competing fly shooters that said they would come....


Cheers

Anthony

[Les Fraser]

Wow this is the hottest topic in 12 months. I agree with Pete. Paul, Chappo and Anthony all have very good responses. However the newbie issue can be put to rest with a Tyro trophy having never shot a fly match if Wagga would allow me i would like to chip in for this trophy and i know others would also (Anthony). Over the past few years there has been alot of things tried and failed. The tactical match at the Bay was thought out, programed and we got no favourable responses from the hotshot small grouping tactical guys.  

I have said this all the time shooting sports gain their extra numbers from current shooters or their families, Anthony's young bloke starts soon, Chappo's, my son all are the future of the sport and no one wants to see them do it hard or they won't stay.

The original thread started by Chappo was about rebarreling an existing rifle, personally i cannot see the advantage as long as it is the same profile no truing work and you can see if this has been done and a full factory spec chamber (oversized to buggary).

If blokes want to cheat the system to win do we really want them in this sport. I have been shooting since i was 16 years old and shot most of the shooting sports out there and fly shooters are the most honest and happy bunch to be involved in. No one tells you to shhhh on the line if you and your mate are taking the piss out of each other. No one whinges when a great Barry Tucker cannon goes off because that is half the fun of the shoot. The Wow factor in this sport overides all else.

Pete brings more guns to the line than anyone else and i love it, seeing what he brings the line up of first rate rifles (mmm shiny).

The level of competition at the fly now is high, very high over the past 6 years there has been some domination by some shooters but that is not becuase they have brought their wins from high price tags not at all. The 6X47L Stolle that has won 13 events and LG shooter of the year twice cost me $800.00 without scope. now that is a full custom rifle. Their wins have come from hard work, learning how to reload properly learning to read the wind etc etc etc.

A little off the track.

As for factory class i will shoot it till the crowie shits itself and have a blast doing it, if Chappo wanted to rebarrel his sako in the same profile, same oversized chamber with massive neck sizing having the only difference is stainless versus moly to keep him and his son shooting then i don't have a problem with it. Pete's idea of having the top three place getters ammo checked is a great idea and if guys are found to be cheating the rule do we really want them.......
really level the field harris bipods and sand bags only for factory class.. now that will make it interesting.........then our tactical super shooters can come and really get amongst us....................................
Only my thoughts