300m Fly - Hot topic

[Les Fraser]

Hi flyshooters i would like to open a discussion on the 300m fly one of the great shoots we enjoy. I have been in discussions with other shooters who see the 300m fly as a precursor to the 500m event. This is true but i think that it would be even more a challenge to shoot the 300m event with a degree of difficulty similar to the 500m event.

What i am saying is this, the fly target needs to be scaled to the Range it is shot at. So would someone like to do a dimensional reduction to the current fly target to reflect the degree of difficulty.

I think it would make it more of a challenge and who knows may become a recorded event all of it's own which can't be a bad thing after all shooting is about challenging yourself.

one of the appealing aspects of 300m is that new shooters can use a rifle that shoots well at 3oom. So we are still encouraging new shooters but why not give it the appropriate difficulty..........

your thoughts

[chappo (Greg Chapman)]

G'day Les.
I have been thinking about that very thing for some time now. At first I thought it was a good idea to scale the target back, however watching the 300 fly has changed my opinion.

I think you hit the nail on the head when stating that the 300 fly is a way to get people into the sport. It is challenging but not too hard compared to 500. It can be shot with a sporter or varmint rifle. I really do believe that the 300 is a stepping stone to the 500. New shooters can "run what they brung" in a 300 match.

I think if you make the 300 harder you will drive those newbies away as they may well get punished when conditions are poor.

I believe the 300 is a good shoot in its current format. It gets people interested and can be shot with a factory gun. Even to experienced shooter I think 300 is a bit of fun and even a pick me up if you arent shooting the best at 500.

Also some ranges are 300m and others are 300yrds. If it were to become a recognised shoot we could alienate some clubs whose 300 range is different to whatever rules we come up with.

I know some will have a different view but anyway thats my two cents

cheers
chappo

[Anthony Hall]

Hi,

I agree with Chappo.....  

I also had the thought that reducing the target size would be a good idea and add to the challenge...... but it would take away some of the feel good factor for factory guns.  It would also widen the gap in scores between factory and custom.

It is still a real challenge with a custom gun..just different....... you need to shoot an almost perfect score to win, and group size is just as hard with either target size.  With the 296.10 I shot at wagga..... it means that one shot in the 7 ring and you would have been out of contention for the day (lose 3 on score and 2 on group....), that's challenging !!

Apart from that, its great fun to bring your crow / fox / cockatoo / cat etc rifle out and have some fun !!  Lets not make it too hard for those players.

Cheers

Anthony

[Michael Bell]

Hey Chappo, How's the back??
Les, this is an excellent topic & is closely related to one Dave Purcell tried to get going sometime back. I too have been thinking about this for a fair while but only confused myself & so didn't post anything.

 Pete van Meurs believes 300 mtr shooting holds the key to the future of 500 mtr shooting & I agree with him.

If this is true then we need to treat the subject seriously. As said by Anthony & Chappo, sporting rifles with sporting scopes can be easily used @ 300 & the shooter will usually be able to see their bullet holes- this is important for obvious reasons.

If then, 300 mtr events are to be used in the hope of growing 500 mtr events, the question becomes " How do we attract them to the firing line"?
I believe we can learn lots from other sports, particularly golf (which is surprisingly similar to bench shooting in that the competitors of both sports  are basically competing against themselves).  Golf successfully uses a handicap system that very effectively levels the playing field and drags 1000's of players back each week on the basis they are always competitive because of their handicap!
I don't have a firm view just yet about how this could be implemented but I'm sure it could be done with fairness  and I think 300 mtr  Fly is the perfect event to trial such a move. I'm sure there are plenty of .243 & 22-250 owners who would love to have a go at target shooting but feel intimidated by the typical custom bench rifle they may see on the line. A well applied handicap system might ease their fear of failure.

I'm now hoping that everyone who has shot the Fly participates in this discussion, after all, Les created this web site at his own expense for this very reason. The beauty of this forum is that sensible discussion can take place without the antagonism possible on other sites. We don't need to worry about making an idiot of ourselves as every opinion is respected.

[Dave Groves]

Hi Guys,
                The 300m Bat Shoot has been very useful here in Canberra (run by Shooters Wholesale Warehouse) in increasing interest in the 500m Fly, it also provides an opportunity for shooters to tune their gear for the two 500m events we run each year and before they go away to competitions being run by other clubs.

I did mention the issue of target dimensions at the Wagga event to Grant Groves (no relation) when we were discussing the scores achieved, it is something that at least warrants discussion at this point I suppose.

I think that the 300m event is a good opportunity to have a "Fun" day without getting too serious, as such there isn't, in my opinion, any justification to change the target dimensions until the event is run and won on multiple occasions with a perfect score. You sometimes see a Queens Prize won by a shooter with a "Perfect score" ie, all Bulls, with the V count being the splitter for ties, until we see a few wins which are 300.25, I reckon the target dimensions will be OK.

When we start to encounter this problem (It might not take too long..) then I propose that instead of changing the target dimensions, we go to inside scoring. This would mean that a bullet would need to have the majority of it's diameter inside the scoring ring in order to achieve the higher score, although I think that hits on the Fly would have to remain "outside" scoring...

This would be a more palatable solution to the problem than changing the target dimensions, as it would not have the consequences of  leaving clubs with surplus outdated targets.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers.

Dave Groves.

[john mc quire]

Hello Chappo     I agree with you   just use the current target  --don't scale it down  
                        a new shooter will find it hard enough to get a high score with a hunting rifle
                    the best shooter on the day will still win  regardless to the size of the target
                and we don't want to scare a new shooter away  -- they will only be shooting against
                  factory rifles  -- not the custom ones  --
               we need more shooters to build our sport  and the 300 shoot is a perfect way to do this
                 most of the SSAA ranges around Australia have 300 yds or mt  for this  shoot
                               john mc quire

[Stuart Elliott]

Having read this thread I can agree with all. 300 is fine and I now see the arguments for leaving the target size as is.

But I believe we are getting this all wrong anyway.  There is no shortage of shooters. There actually never will be. If events are populated by a variety of people who are committed to all aspects, shooting, organising, social ..... then the sport will thrive and grow. It needs to remain interesting and challenging. But to remain a place of social engagement too.  For some reason more so in Australia there is a huge expectation of having to win. If you cannot win within 3 years then they leave. Once a person wins once they are cheered, twice and they are applauded, three times and more and theybecome the enemy. There is a severe problem with this attitude.


You could look at running 300 and 500 matches commercially. There have been 3 matches commercially organised and run which I know of. All in Canberra in the 1990's. two of those by our daughter Jane actually. They were very successful but the organisers needed to make more money to compenstae the amount work so it failed to continue.

In the USA the biggest benchrest match on the planet every year is the US Super Shoot at Kelbly in Ohio. Been going for more than 30 years that way. Costs upwards of $500 entry fee. So how about we run a 4 day Fly shoot and charge $500 in Canberra. Will that work?
But 300-400 people in the USA and Europe every year don't mind paying because they know they get a great match and great social interaction which is part of that carefully structured arrangement. The shooting almost becomes secondary. Its an interesting difference over there. Of those 300 plus people 90% of them know they are never gunna win. But that doesn't matter. They enjoy the company. They enjoy shooting and owning accurate rifles. They enjoy seeing the new and the discussions on equipment. They enjoy the BBQ's and the Icecream truck. They marvel at a slick run organisation and a clean well displayed rifle range. In other words the shooting and the winning is not everything for everyone so be careful what we promote. Why is it a slick job with the lawns mowed and no rubbish and the whole place looks like a park? Because they are paid to get it right.  If they let it slip these people may not keep coming back.

I think this is about the only commercially run match in the USA. Others are voluntarily run and those have similar problems to us.  I was just looking at a photo from 2004 of us helping Mike Ratigan on a tractor with post hole digger the night before a match at Raton, New Mexico. He went back and got on the PA system and asked all his fellow Americans why he had to work with a couple of Aussies helping him whilst the rest sat around and drank beer. Well about 5 more people came and helped. The other 80 or 90 odd drank beer, still.

You know, we have the same problems with short range Benchrest, Hunterclass benchrest, 1,000 yard benchrest, fullbore, F class etc, etc. In fact in the Brisbane 1,000 yard club we have changed tact now. Everyone used to go out of their way to encourage shooters to come and shoot. They did, but all we achieved was to encourage people to expect us to do things for them to come and enjoy.  Now we promote being good club members. That includes shooting of course but more than just that. If people don't fit that mould they don't come to our club and we all have a better life.

Its all in the way you think about what you are promoting to potential shooters.

Stuart

[jacko/A bending]

GOOD TOPIC,,,i think its fine the way it iz,,u dont wont to make it any harder,,treat it az wot it iz a FUN day ,,
the last thing u wont to do iz scare the shit out of a new shooter,,u need to keep this simple,,,az fare az handy caps , where do u draw the line and how ,,,the golf system does not work,,i know i play ,,if some one domminates so let it be,,
it dosnt meen the rest of us arnt having fun,,its not about winning,not fore me anyway,,,its about doing wot u like and enjoying the day out,,this is more fun than the 500m in the way its not az punishing,,,if its to easy fore u good shooters then try it with your 22 rim fire,,im shore that will make it a bit harder for ua,,,of corse u wont because  use r to embeded in winning,,,this is a great shoot the way it iz ,,fun fore all,,,new and old,,,i wish there where  more with the 500m event,,wagga woz great,,,u could hany cap this event by if u win u get a 5 point handy cap 3 second 1 thrd,,it would be easy and it would level the playing field at the top end of the shooters,,,,,but then u would hav people throw shots on perpose just like in golf , so az not to get handy capped,,,, so just ride with wot it iz and hav fun,,
THE SIMPLE THINGS IN LIFE R THE BEST,,,cheers every one end keep well

[Dave Purcell]

All very interesting ...
The scaling down of the Fly target was done years ago by John Rawson. As I recall he sized the target down by 1/3 but did not really get a significant change in results. Then again you only needed 35-40 points a target to win a match then too.
So accuracy and scores have risen with 50's being the norm these days at 500m.
I agree that the current target works well for new shooters at 300 with non target rifles and thats to be encouraged.
I also see that its become a shoot off for the guys that shoot the Fly and as Anthony pointed out you slip 1 shot out and your done for the day. A handicap systems are difficult to manage and as Jacko points out dont work that well really and are open to abuse.
If the idea is to make it more challenging for the established shooters and possibly make it a shoot in its own right as such then you could run it as factory class using the current target and custom class using a reduced target. This would allow the existing Fly crowd to hone skills and equipment in match that is challenging and also allow new shooters to continue on the old target as an introduction.
Cost is a few new targets for custom class, no change to scoring method and a clear difference between the classes.
Stuarts idea for a Super Shoot is a good one and could work around 500m, 300m centre fire fly and 200m rimfire fly then for colour add a 1000yd BR or 500m BR(600yd IBS) shoot for day 4 ... now that would be a great few days.

[Pete van Meurs]

Sorry about the photo - can't seem to make it happen! Most of you know what I look like and others can be spared the experience. Onto the 300 yd/mt target. Our experience has been that a reduction in size would be counter-productive when it comes to new guys and/or factory rifles. We have even had guys having a go with open sights and they are delighted if they get a scoring shot or two - don't make it any harder for them! As to using two different size targets - extra cost, confusion, etc,etc make that concept un-workable. I say stay with the regular size target and if we get to the stage where we have 'possibles' shot on a regular basis or too many count-backs to break ties then switch CUSTOM class to 'worst edge' scoring (otherwise known as inner edge) as Dave Groves suggested. Target Rifle Aust did this years ago in small-bore to avoid the need for a new target - eminently successful! First step would be to ensure that the bullet did not go beyond the outer edge of the printed scoring ring leaving a next option for the future of the bullet not touching the inner edge of the ring. As we all can imagine we also have two options for'Fly' hits - touching from without or fully within (this may be hard to define and we may have to re-introduce the inner circle that was present on some earlier fly target prints. The bottom line is that the worst thing we could do is to try to lock this event in to a seperate and rigid set of rules. In States where it matters the event could still be run as an event covered by the 'Fly' rules and so satisfy State regulations as the standard target is being used. The flexibility regarding scoring should never become an issue and we can continue to shoot on both metric or Imperial ranges.
Don't forget the bull-shit factor in that you can take away a 300 target  and try to con some sucker into believing that it was shot at 500!

Pete