1000yds on Electronic Targets at Canberra on 28 September 2014

[Dave Groves]

Hi all,
           I would like some discussion on this issue, apologies as it is a bit off-topic for this forum, but the majority of shooters who participate in the March and September shoots are Fly Shooters.

1000yds on electronic targets.

Canberra Rifle Club intends to use it’s Kongsberg electronic targets for this shoot and into the future for its 1000yds Benchrest competition, the reason is simple, we have tested the results provided by the e-targets and weighed the advantages of not needing competitor marking against the very minor discrepancies between the electronic measurement of the groups and the physical measurement of the groups.

Just a few of the advantages are:
1. No more pulling targets means those that are not able to do so, can participate more.
2. A shorter day for the organizers and shooters to achieve a result in the format we have been using up until now (2 stages per class);
3. The possibility of expanding the competition to 3 or 4 targets
4. The re-introduction of randomised shooting order, eliminating potential advantages of shooting earlier in the day;
5. The ability for all shooters to shoot two classes without impacting upon finishing time; and
6. Shooters needing to travel home on the day will be able to get away earlier, or participate where they had not previously been able to.
 
The e-targets have been tested and proven to provide excellent accuracy, the worst discrepancy between electronic measurement and physical measurement in testing was experienced when a shot was almost off the target face striking the timber in the top of the target, this is one of the hardest sections for the target to provide accurate readings from. Even in this situation, only a 2.5mm discrepancy was found between the electronic  and physical measurements of the group. Sub millimeter accuracy is found in a lot of cases with 1.5mm (38 thou) between electronic result and actual measurement being normal worst case for shots inside the 2 ring of the 1000yds targets.

Currently there is no ability to print groups, however a request has been made to the supplier for this ability (which did exist in a previous software version) and it is being put in place, the process of recording group sizes will be performed by the range officer on our usual scoring sheets, with extra attention to multiple witnesses observing and signing the record sheet in the event of a suspected record.

Righto, what are peoples thoughts? We have run the club shoot twice now on e-targets with success and it is amazingly fast to get through the day, are people willing to give it a go?

Cheers.

Dave Groves.

[Michael Bell]

G'day Dave,
Sounds like fantastic news.
A quick question....previously we have elected to shoot "marked" or "unmarked"....I'm now assuming we get to see fall of shot each time on a screen at the bench?? & therefore we will always be now shooting, by default, " marked"...

Regards,
Belly

[Dave Groves]

Hi Mick,
                Thanks mate, good question that I neglected to cover in the initial post.

Marked and Blind are still available to each shooter. A little bit of info about the process is below.

We will have two monitors set up for each bench. Each monitor is configurable to give a few different pieces of information as well as displaying the group on a representation of the target and telling you what the score is. Unfortunately the two bits of information that we use the most are displayed in the same area and you need to toggle between them to make it really useful, luckily we have enough monitors (worth $4500 each) to have two per bench, each one configured slightly differently as follows:

One of the monitors is configured to show us the relationship of the shot to the centre of the target, this is basically so we can help people get centred onto the target as you can't just hold your point of aim and wind to the spotter with electronic targets, the system tells you the x and y  co-ordinates (in mm) of the shot  in relation to the centre of the target on the monitor, I have a table that converts the mm to MOA so people can wind corrections on their scopes.

The second monitor is set up to show the centre to centre measurement of the two widest shots in the group, we use this monitor to tell us the final group size.

To shoot marked, a monitor is on the bench configured as per the first example above so that the shooter can make adjustments using the information displayed on it and it is placed so that the shooter can see the face, the other monitor is generally left beside the bench out of the way, onlookers can watch the group developing if they want.

To shoot marked, both monitors are turned so that they face the bench and ground respectively, this prevents the shooter seeing the result and the onlookers can't see either, once the shooter has removed the bolt from their rifle, we can turn the monitors back up so that the group can be seen.

Another great feature of this is that you have basically unlimited sighters.

Thanks again for the pertinent question Mick.

Cheers.

Dave.


We will be running 5 targets

[chappo (Greg Chapman)]

Dave, can't wait to try them. As this will be my young blokes first 1000yrd shoot, having the ability to see the shots developing will be a great way to wet his feet.

I like he idea of more targets and an earlier finish.

Just my two cents.

Chappo

[Anthony Hall]

Sounds like progress and adapting to modern technology.... I see that as a good thing.

The fact that everyone has the same opportunity... that is all at the same time, marked or blind and the same accuracy in scoring, more targets in less time etc... far surpasses the advantages of exact manual measure of a record for me....

Ability to save, email and or print groups would be an advantage.

I imagine that some will still prefer the age old physical targets..... and fair enough.... would be good to hear those arguments.

But my $0.02 says bring on the electronic versions !!

Cheers

Anthony

PS I wonder if the I-phone optics will still pick up the bullet holes at 1000 yards ?

[Tony Souter]

Hi Dave

You  mentioned one of the advantages "No more pulling targets means those that are not able to do so, can participate more. "

I have permanent mobility issues from a motor vehicle accident, so have not considered 1000yd events in the past.
A mate of mine confined to a wheelchair has shot the 500fly and would also love to have a go at 1000yds.

So, from a physically handicapped point of view, I think it is a great step forward.

Cheers
Tony

[Les Fraser]

Dave i think this is a wonderful step forward as electronics are the future of all shooting sports. to be able to shoot possibily 4 targets in each class would certainly increase your numbers.

From a person point i like the 1000yds but only shooting a couple of targets then pulling targets and a long trip home just isn't that appealing.

Should this get off the ground i would certainly like to shoot this match and also assist in the set up and pack up.

cheers Les

[Rod Davies]

Sounds good being able to shoot 4 targets in a day and not have to pull targets.
Can you confirm if muzzle brakes are allowed in LG at Canberra?

[justjeff]

Dave,

While I see the advantages of time and competitors not having to pull targets etc, there remains the accuracy issue. I recently shot a 500m group of 0.983, the range record is 0.981, the e targets would probably not have discriminated this, or reversed the result even.
A similar thing happened at the Narromine shot in 2013, Tony Z and Trev Armstrong were both credited with the same size group, measured in millimetres. On checking back at the accomodations, which was possible because we had paper targets, Trevor was found to have shot the smaller group. This stands as the Narromine LG record.
By all means use the e targets for club shots, but when it comes to a new record, or a large competition, paper is the only thing that is going to be recognised by a lot of Aussie shooters, and by the IBS, who won't admit a record shot on e targets until such time as 0.001" is verifiable.

Jeff

[Anthony Hall]

Hi Jeff,

Good to hear your opinion as an experienced 1000 yard competitor.  I also understand and like the "Purist" side of 1000 yard.... that is shooting Blind and on paper targets... It is part of the feel and appeal to me.

I have only ever shot blind, not just because I like the purist idea.... but as it is predominately a group shoot.... I believe there is a competitive advantage of blind shooting... you can purely focus on the wind and your speed as required during your string... rather than slowing down looking at markers etc.  I see the change to electronic targets keeping the same issues.... you might score better if you use the monitors.... but the prestige is all in group size....and I maintain its better not to know until after.

But when it comes to .002" score differentiation... I  would argue that there are not many humans capable of measuring at the range with normal resolution equipment to that degree of accuracy.... indeed there could easily be .010" between one scorer and another on the same group with the same tools, and as the morning and afternoon group at canberra have not only different conditions, but different scorers..... I would prefer to take my chances on the accuracy of the machine... at least everyone has the same conditions and the same accuracy or lack there of....

Not to mention the benefit of immediate results and more targets... adds to the fun, might see more people shoot the 1000 yard after a fly shoot and get hooked on the challenge.

However that does not mean everyone has to agree.... and maybe we will one day have targets that can be printed with .001" accuracy for verification after a shoot, and be kept for records... who knows where the technology will lead.... but I like where it is going for now.

I would love to hear the opinions of other devoted 1000 yard campaigners, it is a great sport.

Cheers

Anthony

[Rob]

Dear David,

The introduction of electronic targets is a great idea and if it helps to get the shoot done earlier with less effort it has to be a big plus for all attending. I am looking forward to trying this out with the others at the 1000. If we also get to shoot another target that has to be a big plus as experience at 1000 is hard to come by and I have problems reading the conditions, extra practice will only help.

Regards Rob B

[Dave Groves]

Hi Jeff and all,
                           The idea of this thread was to get an idea for how people feel about the issue, I agree it is a line in the sand and there are advantages and disadvantages of both systems.

I have spoken to some other competitors who take 1000yds seriously and they are happy enough to give it a try, accepting that records shot won't be recognised by the US and maybe other clubs. They aren't that upset about it, we'll see how it goes.

Dave.